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Best place to acquire kerfing?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=12149		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Chris Cordle [ Tue May 22, 2007 2:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Anyone know a good source for getting a bunch of kerfing?

I've been using LMI's mahogany standard and would like to find a source
who might give a better price break on quantity.

Thanks,
Chris
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue May 22, 2007 2:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
The Zootman seems to have a good stock.  Don't know about the pricing.
Author:  tippie53 [ Tue May 22, 2007 11:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have some also. If you also check out GRIZZLY.COM they also carry it and it is full length. They also have a number of kerfing styles
john hall
http://www.grizzly.com/products/searchresults.aspx?q=kerfing
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Wed May 23, 2007 12:41 am ]
Post subject: 
Luthiers, a kerf is the slot cut by a saw. You all know that right?

So, kerfing is what's on the floor when you are done making linings, right?   

Therefore, the proper term is kerfed linings, anyone agree?

Disagree?

Oh, I get mine from Mark Ketts, www.guitarjigs.com, but I don't know if he still sells linings? Mark?

I've thought about making them, but never got that far. Martin's guitarmakers connection sells the original triangular stuff, but most of what I got from them was furry, like it was cut damp. It was difficult to use and had to be sanded clean and prepped for use. I might have just gotten a bad run.

another thing about the linings from Martin, they snap them in two, and wrap masking tape around them for shipping...............aaaaaaaaaaaarrrgh!
Author:  Kim [ Wed May 23, 2007 1:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Bruce is right and the best place to get those kerfed linings is in your own shed using a KSled. Get the bits together during the week, put it together on a Saturday morning and you have free kerfed linings forever in what ever style you choose, and with kerf spacing how you like them.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Chris Cordle [ Wed May 23, 2007 1:32 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=larkim] Bruce is right and the best place to get those kerfed
linings is in your own shed using a members.optusnet.com.au/sound.buy/ksled/">KSled. Get the bits
together during the week, put it together on a Saturday morning and you
have free kerfed linings forever in what ever style you choose, and with
kerf spacing how you like them.

Cheers

Kim[/QUOTE]

That's great if you're set up for that kind of work. My shop is very small at
this time and there are things I just can't do for now.

I don't feel guilty about sourcing the items I cannot create feasibly.

I think of it along these terms:
Porche makes great cars, but I'm pretty sure they source their tires from
those who are best to manufacture them.
(Not that my guitars are Porches, but they're at least a '72 Pinto Wagon,
and Pinto's need tires too)!
Author:  Kim [ Wed May 23, 2007 1:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Yep, no two ways about it, it would be tuff to get a Ksled to work without a small bandsaw, it's a must have tool for lots of stuff.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Chris Cordle [ Wed May 23, 2007 2:29 am ]
Post subject: 
I do have a small bandsaw...not sure what a ksled is.
I don't have a good tablesay though which I think would be required to rip
the mahogany into the correct dimensions.
Author:  Colin S [ Wed May 23, 2007 3:17 am ]
Post subject: 
I have recently gone over to laminated solid linings and I believe they are a quantum leap (a quantum is actually a very small amnount but you get the picture) in building.



Colin
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed May 23, 2007 3:22 am ]
Post subject: 
No I don't, yes I do, I don't know Heck, Im so confussed I thought French Polish refered to a Frank made form Polish sauage Just kidding
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed May 23, 2007 3:42 am ]
Post subject: 
While we're on this subject, has anyone seen a product called Bendywood?  Take a look at their website here

This is an incredible product.  Bends 1:10 / thickness to radius, when cold, and stays there.  I saw it at a woodworking show.  They were giving out samples that were about 3/16 x 1 x 15".  You could bend and unbend it at will.  You could even bend it into a circle or tighter.  At the time, I thought about using for linings in a guitar because of its properties.  The samples were beech, but they also have oak and some other hardwoods.   It is produced by compressing the wood - lengthwise, which pushes the grain in on itself, and results in the ability to bend at room temp.  Great idea.  In an instrument, one would have to examine the properties relative to moisture, and expansion and contraction compared to other woods.  It just seemed to have such possibilities.
Author:  burbank [ Wed May 23, 2007 4:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Waddy,

That looks like a great product, but for guitar linings I'd be concerned about it not holding a specific shape, such as a guitar's. Seems like we'd want something to hold onto the shape we want for linings, if we're after the extra stiffness that reverse kerfed or solid linings provide, compared to the "normal" kerfed ones. Thoughts, anybody?

Author:  Rod True [ Wed May 23, 2007 4:47 am ]
Post subject: 
Waddy, that stuff looks really cool. I decided to inquire about pricing and it's really not conducive for us (read it's bloody expensive) to use in guitar making.

Here is the brake down. A piece of 15mm x 100mm x 1650 mm (0.59" x 4" x 65") piece of beech would cost $190 USD before shipping.

So, you could get 26 pieces at 7/32" wide x 9/16" high x 32.5" long for $7.31 each (that doesn't include any $ for milling or shipping).

So although this is a very cool product, it just costs way to much compared to any and all other options for linings.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed May 23, 2007 5:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Yes, that is very expensive.  I would also be concerned about the effects of moisture on the bent wood.  It does, however seem to stay where it's put once bent.  You have to physically unbend it to straighten it out.  It is a new product, and I would assume that as it grows, the price could come down.  It is just too cool to play with.  I had to actually bend it double and squeeze the two ends together to get it to break.  It is good, however, for government use in architecture.
Author:  fryovanni [ Wed May 23, 2007 5:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Colin, How wide do you make your laminated linings?

Waddy, I looked at the bendywood site. Does the sensitivity to moisture(expansion) seem like it would be an issue?

I have made my own kerfed linings(not too difficult, and material cost is quite low of course your time is a factor. If you are only making a small number at a time just buying can be sensable). I have bought them from Bob C.(his linings are very good quality and his prices are reasonable as always).

Peace,Rich
Author:  Shawn [ Wed May 23, 2007 6:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Colin,

For classicals(Spanish school) I use laminated solid linings for the back.

I use dentellones for the top. For the dentellones I use alternating blocks of 10mm high by 8mm wide by 8mm deep and 8mm high by 8mm wide by 8mm deep, with the inner (front face) beveled so that the ledge at the top and bottom of the piece is 3mm. This is the style of Jose Romanillos and is typically Spanish. It allows the top to move freely with less wood mass around the top rim than a solid or kerfed lining.

Dentellones are sometimes mistakenly called tentellones but it is dente meaning of the tooth as in dentil moulding. It was years ago that an article on the classical guitar was written in which the author referred to the blocks as tentellones and the name has persisted but it is dentelonnes.

I really like a laminated solid lining for the back as it adds alot of rigidity and looks very clean and handmade where as kerfed linings no matter how nice they look always seem too manufactured.

Note that I am only speaking for classical guitars in the Spanish style and have used all of the other sorts of linings for other guitars in the past.

The most extreme example of laminated solid linings in a classical is in Greg Byers guitars in which his lining for his tops is oak or ash!!! As I am building in the Spanish style, I am trying to build everything as light as possible. My laminated solid linings are usually either Spanish cedar or basswood.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed May 23, 2007 6:46 am ]
Post subject: 

[QUOTE=Shawn]Colin,



For classicals(Spanish school) I use laminated solid linings for the back.



I use dentellones for the top. For the dentellones I use alternating blocks of 10mm high by 8mm wide by 8mm deep and 8mm high by 8mm wide by 8mm deep, with the inner (front face) beveled so that the ledge at the top and bottom of the piece is 3mm. This is the style of Jose Romanillos and is typically Spanish. It allows the top to move freely with less wood mass around the top rim than a solid or kerfed lining.



Dentellones are sometimes mistakenly called tentellones but it is dente meaning of the tooth as in dentil moulding. It was years ago that an article on the classical guitar was written in which the author referred to the blocks as tentellones and the name has persisted but it is dentelonnes.



I really like a laminated solid lining for the back as it adds alot of rigidity and looks very clean and handmade where as kerfed linings no matter how nice they look always seem too manufactured.



Note that I am only speaking for classical guitars in the Spanish style and have used all of the other sorts of linings for other guitars in the past.



The most extreme example of laminated solid linings in a classical is in Greg Byers guitars in which his lining for his tops is oak or ash!!! As I am building in the Spanish style, I am trying to build everything as light as possible. My laminated solid linings are usually either Spanish cedar or basswood.[/QUOTE]

Shawn:
Do you place your dentillones close together, or space them.  I noticed that Meneghelli, featured on the Guitars International site Here uses the Romanillos style, and puts them close together, looks like almost touching.  Also, are they square in the corner where the top meets the side or sloped?  I was glad to see the little glimpses of the solera and how things go together.  Also the scooped out bracing, which had caught my attention in the stuff I had read, but had not seen.
Author:  Cocephus [ Wed May 23, 2007 8:15 am ]
Post subject: 

I`m a little late in the thread, but I can vouch for trhe K-sled. Made one a couple weeks ago and it works great. Thanks again, Kim!


Coe
Author:  Ray Pepalis [ Wed May 23, 2007 10:17 am ]
Post subject: 
I read that mahogany and spruce are traditionally used for kerfed (or solid) linings because these materials were made from off-cuts of neck blanks and brace blanks.
Is there any other reason to use these materials?
Wouldn't Walnut, Cherry, Maple, or any other wood be just as good?

Ray
Author:  John K [ Wed May 23, 2007 10:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Colin
   Very nice linings. I would be tempted to use the bent sides propped in the mold as the form for laminating those linings. Is that how you do it? I can imagine that it really stiffens the sides.

John
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Wed May 23, 2007 11:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Colin, I'd be interested in how you make such nice neat linings too. I can imagine bending six identical pieces at one time on the bender, then gluing them up in the mold. How does he do it?
Author:  Kim [ Thu May 24, 2007 12:23 am ]
Post subject: 
I used to make spiral staircase handrails with no heat, just glue form lamination.

You rip a series of looong thin 1/8th" veneers gluing and clamping them into place on a large barrel form stood upright floor to ceiling in the workshop with indexing guides screwed to the form so you could be sure you had things lined up OK.

Once the glue goes off you shape the rail in by hand and then take that big corkscrew out on site to fix in place with the balustrade. As Tony says, nothing is impossible, it just cost more. We charged lots for a full timber spiral handrail, enough to thankfully sway most client towards steel.

My point is that if you can make a 3" x 3" corkscrew that is 12' high free standing by gluing form lamination only and no heat, I reckon you could go close to getting around the inside rim of a guitar the same way provided you thin your veneers enough.

But that is only my guess, a lot would depend on the timber used and a combination of heating, clamping to form and then heating the next veneer and repeating should work well.

Cheers

Kim

Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu May 24, 2007 5:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Bruce. Most dictionaries do not even accept 'kerf' as a verb. I don't mind it as a verb, and that includes the verb participles such as 'kerfing'. Heck, I'm even willing to accept it as a gerund. So I think I'm pretty liberal about usage. But I stop at using 'kerfing' as a noun, because a kerf is an empty space. This usage is like calling donuts "holing."

It also leads to other bizarre and confusing usages. I have seen a well-known builder (an OLFer, who I will not name) talk about "kerfing" the sides. He was not going to cut kerfs in them, as it turned out; he meant gluing in the liners. Then there is the oxymoronic "solid kerfing." I've seen that one, too.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Thu May 24, 2007 6:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Howard, I met an oxymoron once, he was always contradicting himself.....

I love this one, "Square Circle".

I don't know whose Koa Chair I was looking at in another thread. I thought it'd look like a nice Pickin' chair if one was to Douzouki the arms off of it. Of course, I was talking about using a Douzouki to saw them off. Guilty of crucifying the English language, in this case Japanese.... whenever I want.   

I read the word kerf in a Carpentry book a few years back and it always stuck with me, that it was simply a saw slot cut into wood, like fret slots. I guess now we should refer only to fretboard kerfs to be completely accurate.....?

Maybe we'll all convert to Colin's Solid multi-lam linings and this will all go away?

Fun thread, sorry we twisted it from it's original intent..... Howard do you have any dove-tailed kerfed linings?
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