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| Tablesaw Safety Brake http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=12331 |
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| Author: | Kim [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:55 am ] |
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HERE is a great idea. This was posted on another forum but I thought it worth posting here as well because it is brilliant. I for one would not ever want to push my weenie into a spinning tablesaw blade, but if I had to, I would want one of these suckers fitted for sure. Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | RCoates [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:52 pm ] |
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Yep. I've already told the wife this saw is in my future. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:01 pm ] |
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Our local Woodcraft has one of these on display. I don't know if they have sold one yet - they are pricey! My trusted contact there says that this is the best cabinet saw he has ever laid his hands on, without even considering the safety device. They are rock solid and weigh as much as your car. The riving knife and blade guards can be changed in about 15 seconds. The saw comes with a zero clearance plate which is useable to blade tilt angle of 45 degrees - the apparent pivot point center is at the height of the plate. The trunion is incredibly solid - the arbor is regular sized where the blade attaches but is about 1" in diameter where it rides in it's bearings - and those are huge too. The safety device was available for a time as an after-market addition. Apparently, actuating it would usually crack or shatter the trunion in a Unisaw - it couldn't handle the sudden torque on the arbor assembly. The one on display in the Woodcraft has been tested 3 times. They set it up and tested parallel and set all the tilt angles using one of those digital tilt gages that attaches to the blade. After 3 tests, the tilt meter setting is still accurate to within accuracy of the reading, with no further adjustments having been made. During one demonstration, they did the hot dog trick and then passed the hotdog around to the viewers. No one could find a scratch on the hotdog. The general impression is that the blade drops below the table top so fast that it almost doesn't matter if it stopped spinning - the difference between these two events is in milliseconds. If I had the money and needed a cabinet saw, I'd by one in a second. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:14 pm ] |
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You better believe the blade stops. It jams itself into an aluminum block and stops immediately. They are nice saws, but the reviews on the original weren't so hot, but they fixed all of the shortcomings as I understand it. It costs about $150 to 200 everytime it fires that block into the blade - that includes the blade which has to be replaced too. It is effective though, I saw the demonstration at the commercial woodworking show in Greensboro this year. You have to have a separate unit for using a dado blade because they were getting too many misfires. It apparently works on an electronic sensing type system. The hot dog, and your finger are conductive, while the wood is not. However, there are some conditions that will cause misfires. Someone told me that you can't cut treated wood with the system engaged. That might not be the case with the kind that is kiln dried after treating, I don't know. It is a nice saw though, and couple of hundred is not too much to save a finger. Besides the cost of the saw, of course. |
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| Author: | Dean [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:16 pm ] |
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I have one. It is actuated by a milliamp electrical circuit through your skin. Moisture can set it off as well as metallic substances. The aluminum stop block is only good for one time (which includes the microprocessor). Kind of pricey but cheaper than losing your nose picker. By the way, you need a separate unit with processor to use a dado set. Dean |
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| Author: | Dean [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:18 pm ] |
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Sorry Waddie. I was typing as you were posting. Dean |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:19 pm ] |
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Great Minds! |
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| Author: | Chansen [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:40 pm ] |
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Hmmm..... I am far off from buying a cabinet saw but this would be kinda nice. My wife may even giver her blessing because of the safety features and all.. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:48 pm ] |
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The SawStop saw is one of the finest built saws I've ever seen. As Todd mentions, it has some great features, but it also has one of the most massive trunions of any saw I've seen. I was sure wishing I had one this last weekend when I dropped my ring finger accidently into the blade while reach to get my push stick from the top of the fence. Ouch. Stupid. The $3,400 for the SawStop is looking like less and less to me everyday now. Too bad you can't buy the gizmo part of it to retrofit other saws. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:29 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Don Williams] I was sure wishing I had one this last weekend when I dropped my ring finger accidently into the blade while reach to get my push stick from the top of the fence. Ouch. Stupid. [/QUOTE] Soooo...where is that finger today!?  I sure hope all is well.
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:47 am ] |
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Sawstop has announced a contractor saw for release in late 2007. I'm pretty sure I'll get that one when it comes out. It too has a riving knife so it should be just as safe as the cabinet saw. I don't know the price though. The replacement cartridge is more like $75 than $100. Of course, the blade is shot too so it will probably cost you about $200 for each firing. If you never have a mis-fire, than $200 plus the premium on the saw itself will be nothing compared to a trip to the emergency room. Ask anyone who's lost a finger if they'd pay $1000 to get it back. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:58 am ] |
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I have not heard where they are on the mis-fire thing. For a while it was a pretty big issue. Couple of those a quarter, and the saw gets pretty expensive. If you are doing precision work, and use high-end blades, it is an expensive saw to operate. Otherwise, you are constantly turning off the stop part - that makes it just another saw. |
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| Author: | blindreality [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:07 am ] |
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I think this is something that insurance companies should consider offering huge incentives to get. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:28 am ] |
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[QUOTE=blindreality] I think this is something that insurance companies should consider offering huge incentives to get. [/QUOTE] I have read that one of the concerns with this system is regarding insurance claims because of malfunction; what happens if one day it does NOT work as promised and seriously maims someone who thought they were safe because they had on of these saws, can they be sued? And what if a school buys one of these saws, the shop students know how it is supposed to work, but they just watched jackass on TV the night before and they want to see for themselves. They would probably just ruin the blade and the cartridge, which I guess is bad enough if it happens often, but what if…? |
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| Author: | blindreality [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:09 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Arnt] What if? What if you get in a car accident and your air bag fails? Or perhaps your seat belt? Do those safety features reduce the need for training and careful application of the tool? I never think about the safety features on my car, I'm always concerned with preventing the accident before it happens, but if I were to get into one I would probably be thankful for the air bags, crumble zones, and seat belt. They are all last ditch efforts to protect the individual, not excuses to do stupid stuff. A safety on a gun doesn’t excuse someone for pointing it in an unsafe direction. Safety begins and ends with training, but sometimes accidents still happen and when they do a 50% chance that the safety mechanism will work is better than a 0% chance. Anyone who fails to treat this tool like every other table saw is a fool, but we all make mistakes and if a safety feature provides even a slight chance of saving a finger, I think it is worth it. Would you advertise to the students that it won’t cut them? No, you’d tell them it would likely rip their hands apart just like every other tool. And if/when someone did accidentally slip their hand in then the odds of it ending happily are significantly higher. Safety features aren’t about guarantees, they are about improving odds. |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:11 am ] |
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The concerns about mis-fires are almost all hypothetical. One of the reviews I read had the reviewer trying to get it to fire. He succeeded when it tried to rip a piece of lumber that was dripping wet. He toweled it off and then he could cut it. The saw has an indicator that tells you if it would fire. If you touch the material that you are going to cut to the blade before you turn on the saw, it will tell you if it is OK to cut. The other source mis-fires is foil backed sheet goods. Once again, the saw will tell you if you need to disable the stop feature. I suspect that with a bit of practice the user will develop a "when in doubt, test it" approach. I suspect that this would not be the right saw to use in a meat processing plant. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:26 am ] |
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While I think this is an absolutely brilliant piece of thinking outside the box, I would never own one. I think it allows the user to get complacent. "Oh I don't have to be careful because if I screw up the blade will drop and I'll be fine." My table saw is THE most respected tool in the shop. And I'd hate to develop that sense of complacency. I really think there is a huge responsibility for us, as users, to know the PROPER way to use tools and then to actually use them that way. Question: how many of you actually use the splitters on your table saws? Yes, I took mine off too because it was alwas in the way. But I replaced it with a MicroJig removable splitter. When ripping, it is always used. And it has save me from some good kickbacks. Why am I preaching about this? I have no idea. This kind of stuff usually falls on deaf ears. Do what you want with your tools, but if you are going to use them unsafely, please do it carefully. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:03 am ] |
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[QUOTE=blindreality] What if? ... Safety features aren’t about guarantees, they are about improving odds. [/QUOTE] I agree with you, but as I said I have read that some people suspect this scenario is one of the reasons the big saw manufacturers have not incorporated the feature. |
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| Author: | martinedwards [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:23 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Arnt] And what if a school buys one of these saws?[/QUOTE] In the UK the students aren't even allowed in the same ROOM as a table saw!!! staff have to attend a 3 day course with a 1 day refresher every 3 years. would this mean that my dad couldn't use it to butcher a frozen hog? he did this once on the farm using a 9" angle grinder. The pig was killed, bled, gutted ect then tossed into the freezer whole. a week later he chopped (and I MEAN chopped) it up with the grinder!! |
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| Author: | Bill Bergman [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:37 am ] |
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I might have read by this in another posting, but just in case it isn't there, for those of you contemplating this saw, it requires 220 volts. |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:05 am ] |
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I think all true cabinet saws require a 220v circuit. I've not run across one that doesn't. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:08 am ] |
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Interesting discussion here- at what point are we willing to take responsibility for our own safety? The analogy between the SawStop and front-impact air bags is a good one. Front air bags don't provide any additional protection to a person who has his seat belt properly fastened; they were devised to protect folks who refuse to belt up. Originally an option on expensive cars, they are now practically universal, add a good chunk to the cost of a car, and result in a huge repair bill (or vehicle write-off) after even a fairly minor collision. All of this positive cash flow is welcomed by the auto industry. When you can't buy a saw without this 'safety feature' (don't put your hand on the blade, use push sticks, fix your setup if your work is binding, use a sled for crosscutting panels..duh!), and replacement costs for new 'stop cartridges' and blades is a recurring part of your shop budget, you may think differently about the (dubious) benefit it provides. I'm not against all safety devices- I'd pay to install larger shut-off switches on my tools if they were available at a reasonable price-but that's another topic. Cheers John |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:19 am ] |
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I decided that I'm going to buy one of these cabinet saws when my finances allow it. I'm the poster-adult for Adult Attention Deficit Disorder, and things just have a way of happening with me. I've had two very close calls with my table saw, which resulted in (fortunately) only minor injury. After hearing how many table saw accidents there are in this country every year, I decided that I stand a significant risk of eventually being one of the more awful statistics. To spend $3000 to save my fingers so that I can continue to play the guitar the rest of my life is worth it. Not to mention eveything else I need my fingers for every day. If I have to spend another $150 every year thereafter to replace a couple stupid cartridges that go off to save my fingers, so be it. I'll still be as careful as I always try to be, and hopefully if I have a momentary lapse of concentration or judgement, I'll be covered by the safety feature and not lose precious digits. Besides the safety features of these saws, having seen one in person, I can tell you they're one of the best saws money can buy with or without the brake. I'm just not sure how anyone can look at this product, or for that matter - any product that is designed with such amazing safety features, and see something devious or underhanded about the industry because of it. No offense, but that's twisted thinking. Are they gonna make money on selling saws with this safety devise? Absolutely. More power to them. I will be happy to hand them my money when it comes time, and I won't regret it for even a moment. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:52 am ] |
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You know Don, if they were available over here I would consider it too, even if I have a very nice cabinet saw already. In not too many years I will be showing my kids how to operate it, I think I would feel better about it if it was not so dangerous. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:34 am ] |
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Good points, Don. I certainly respect folks who choose to add some safety for themselves and their kids in the shop. I didn't make myself very clear (as usual). First, saws like this in the future will not be optional and you will have no choice about whether to buy such safety devices- folks from Europe and Canada will probably see this sooner than you in the US. Second, it's not a matter of just a few hundred dollars extra for this saw, with its better construction, etc. A good cabinet saw should last 50+ years - if you have a couple of misfires a year (wet spot on a board, staple fragment from price tag, etc) you could be looking at $500/yr in extra costs and it will add up over the saw life. If it is worth it to the user, that's fine. But people should be up front about the real cost. (It's kinda like the $39 inkjet printer- the companies plan on making their profit on the ink cartridges- nothing devious, it's just part of the business plan.) Third- once more of these saws get into circulation we will see how folks manage to injure themselves in spite of the sawstop feature. This was pointed out by several other people. (Do you use a jointer? Lots of lost fingers there as well.) The power-tool-equipped shop is a dangerous place. Protecting yourself is an important part of working there. Personally, I don't want to think even for a millisecond that I will be 'all right' if I touch a moving saw blade. I keep my eyes on the blade and my hands well away. When I do something stupid, I get scared: I stop and take a break or figure out a safer way to do the job. Fortunately, I don't allow other people to use my tools so I don't have to worry about the safety of others. I would agree with Arnt's idea (I think it was his) to keep this feature a secret from novice users. I'm all for keeping your fingers (and eyes, and ears) intact. The most dangerous table saws I've ever had to use were ones equipped with elaborate 'blade guards' (workplace-mandated) which made it impossible to use push sticks or to make narrow cuts. Cheers John |
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