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Segovia vs Chapdelaine
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=12438		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:09 am ]
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Here is a bit of history of the Master and the student (Segovia vs.Michael Chapdelaine)from many moons ago.

Segovia vs Chapdelaine
Author:  John Elshaw [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:27 am ]
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I guess it just goes to show that it takes a completely different skill set to be an intermediate player like Segovia to a master instructor like Aaron Shearer. Chapdelaine was very humble for Segovia in the interview that followed, although I think he had every right to be furious. No doubt Segovia made HUGE strides for the classical guitar world, but he seemed like a bitter old man and not much of an instructor. Some of todays players put him to shame in both musicality and technical ability.

That's a great video clip though!

John
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:15 am ]
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John you are of course right, Segovia was a giant of his time and probably (in my opinion after Tarrega) the greatest influence on the classical guitar world. But he was of his day. But, as in any area of endevour, the world moves on. I think it happens to a lot of the great musicians as they reach the end of their lives they hear younger players who have moved the art forward and become a little bitter, it happened as well with Casals.

Colin
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:23 am ]
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It's an unfortunate attitude, though, which I tend to see through my own profession.

As an academic scientist, there are two obvious realities:

(1) Science moves forward.
(2) It's your job to train the next generation of scientists.

Therefore - You are only a successful academic scientist (emphasizing the academic part) if your students end being ahead of you.

It's just part of reality. The payoff moments as a teacher are when your students get to that point. It's a letdown to never have a good enough student to do it.

Author:  jfrench [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:41 am ]
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Actually, many of today's younger players could probably use a bit of bossing around by a "bitter old man".

Who stands out as a leader amongst classical guitarists now as we're moving on from Segovia, Bream and Romero(s)? That seems like a pretty tough question - a million incredible guitarists but not a single one to reach beyond the world of classical guitar enthusiasts.

Maybe the Old Man is not too bad.
Author:  jfrench [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:42 am ]
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Parting thoughts before a vacation. No need to reply.
Author:  L. Presnall [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:59 am ]
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Christopher Parkening always seemed to be a class act as well as a major talent!
Author:  John Elshaw [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:06 pm ]
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[QUOTE=L. Presnall] Christopher Parkening always seemed to be a class act as well as a major talent![/QUOTE]

No offense but CP is almost a laughing stock among serious classical players today. He has made some great recordings, but after his break from guitar and stint into world class fly fishing, he just lost something and was never able to recover.

Colin, do you know why Segovia disliked Tarrega or Pujol so much? I've heard he really disliked these two as well as their students, but never really heard any background why. Competition?

John--I think there are some definite leaders today. I think Aaron Shearer has made as big an impact as anybody in classical guitar (although he is on his way out). If you get a chance, watch his dvd "A Life With the Guitar" and you will be amazed at the impact he's made. Also, I think there will be many others, but it seems we may never realize it until after they're already gone.

Cheers!

John       
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:45 pm ]
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[QUOTE=jfrench] Actually, many of today's younger players could probably use a bit of bossing around by a "bitter old man".

Who stands out as a leader amongst classical guitarists now as we're moving on from Segovia, Bream and Romero(s)? That seems like a pretty tough question - a million incredible guitarists but not a single one to reach beyond the world of classical guitar enthusiasts.

Maybe the Old Man is not too bad.[/QUOTE]

Joshua, I agree that in the pantheon of 20th century music Segovia stands proudly right at the top. There are very few performers who could justifiably claim to have taken a misunderstood and virtually ignored instrument and forced it to the attention of the global music audience. It probably took a personality like his to bestride the musical world as he did.

And no, there is no one who could take his place or truly follow on from Julian Bream. Though wait a year or two and I'll be ready! My teacher says I'll make a decent player in 20 years time, unfortunately at 56 now I'll maybe not quite reach Julian's level! (I'll take him on in a lute contest though , OK I'd get thrashed but I bet he can't make one!)

Have a great break Joshua, You know I'm jealous.

Colin
Author:  Todd Rose [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:34 pm ]
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This is an interesting conversation. I am not a classical guitar enthusiast (though I do have a growing interest in classical guitar music), so I'm oblivious to most of what you all are saying about modern players and the classical guitar world in general. I didn't watch the youtube thing - I'm on dial-up. Just from reading this thread, though, I have two observations from my "outsider" perspective.

First, I agree with Joshua that no contemporary classical guitar players are really making that music very relevant to the world beyond classical guitar enthusiasts; some may be trying, but they don't seem to be having much impact, as is evidenced by the fact that they haven't reached ME, and, as an open-minded music listener (and musician) with very eclectic tastes, I'd say I'm a prime target.

Second, it sounds from John's comments like the culture of classical guitar is highly competitive and prone to dismissing players who aren't the hottest thing going at any given time. That seems really sad to me - unnecessary and not in the best interest of the music. What matters is that the music is played with heart and soul, that it's beautiful and inspiring... right?

I've been listening to Stefano Grondona's "Lo Cant Dels Aucells" a lot lately. For all I know, Grondona may be spat upon by leading players of today, and I may be considered pathetic in my unsophistication for liking this recording... so what. I'm finding it heart-breakingly beautiful, deeply alluring, profoundly enjoyable and inspiring...
Author:  robertD [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:15 pm ]
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Todd,

That was very well said!

BTW, I love classical guitar music!

Robert
Author:  Marc [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:31 pm ]
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[QUOTE=John Elshaw] ....intermediate player like Segovia ...[/QUOTE]

???????????????????
Author:  Dennis E. [ Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:57 pm ]
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It's not surprising MC got off on the wrong foot with Segovia. At 90 you don't have a lot of time left to waste. It may seem like a petty point, but MC's guitar should have been perfectly in tune before he sat down in that chair. That it wasn't indicates, to me at least, a certain lack of preparation.

We seem now to be living in an age where one's "self-esteem" trumps all other considerations. In whatever endeavor one pursues, if you are given an opportunity for critique by a practitioner at the level of Segovia, you should be praying that he or she points out every possible fault in your performance. It appears from the interview that MC took it that way, bitter medicine though it may have been.

As far as Segovia being "an intermediate player," I'll quote an old pal of mine who once said, "de gustibus non disputandum est." Or maybe it was "carpe cerveza."
Author:  L. Presnall [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:03 am ]
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[QUOTE=John Elshaw] [QUOTE=L. Presnall] Christopher Parkening always seemed to be a class act as well as a major talent![/QUOTE]

No offense but CP is almost a laughing stock among serious classical players today. He has made some great recordings, but after his break from guitar and stint into world class fly fishing, he just lost something and was never able to recover.

Colin, do you know why Segovia disliked Tarrega or Pujol so much? I've heard he really disliked these two as well as their students, but never really heard any background why. Competition?

John--I think there are some definite leaders today. I think Aaron Shearer has made as big an impact as anybody in classical guitar (although he is on his way out). If you get a chance, watch his dvd "A Life With the Guitar" and you will be amazed at the impact he's made. Also, I think there will be many others, but it seems we may never realize it until after they're already gone.

Cheers!

John       [/QUOTE]
Author:  Dave White [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:03 am ]
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It is the right, nay duty, of old men to be "grumpy" - as I am beginning to appreciate
Author:  Pwoolson [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:04 am ]
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OUCH! That was a heck of a critique.
As Jim said, this kind of attitude is in all professions. Including the lutherie trade. I think there are some builders that will be at Healdsburg for the first time. You'll find that some of the "super heros" of the building world have a very similar attitude. As if they discovered guitar building and we're just a bunch of hacks that are taking the trade away from them. Pretty sad actually that there are some that would rather see the trade die than fall into our unqualified hands.
(I was by no means saying that ALL of the "super heros" are like this. Some are very genuine and gererous with their time. But the select few......)
Author:  TRein [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:36 am ]
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A very interesting clip and a look into “the way it was”. Segovia definitely contributed to the re-popularization of the guitar, but his was a case of right place, right time. The guitar rose to ascendancy during the rock years of the 50’s and 60’s and widespread interest in the classical guitar during those years was a spin-off of interest in the guitar in general. I remember seeing Parkening in a large basketball arena at the University of Kentucky in the mid-70’s. The sound was atrocious (unamplified in a gymnasium), but the venue was PACKED. Again, a product of the times.
In 1999, then St. Louis Cardinal Fernando Tatis hit two grand slam homeruns IN THE SAME INNING. This had never been accomplished before or since. In 1949, there would have been huge, front-page headlines in every major daily newspaper across the country heralding Tatis’ feat. In actuality, it was mentioned on the inside of the sports page. A product of the times and baseball's descent from "America's Pastime".
There are many gifted players the equal or better than Segovia on the scene today. But, like Tatis’ accomplishment going largely unnoticed, these players labor in relative obscurity in the classical guitar circle. When I attend a concert at the local guitar series, I find that at 53 years old, I am one of the younger people in attendance. Not a good sign for the future of the classical guitar.
Chapdelaine was almost saintly in restraining his bitterness towards the way he was treated by Segovia. I had a strange feeling that I was watching a cult member explaining the greatness of its leader, but then, the cult of Segovia was certainly in effect at that time. There really was no excuse for Segovia dismissing Chapdelaine because he was fingering the piece differently than Segovia. It is no wonder that Chapdelaine has shifted gears and can be seen playing “Come Together” on YouTube as well. I would give a significant part of my anatomy to see Segovia’s reaction to Chapdelaine rocking out.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:02 am ]
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[QUOTE=TRein] A very interesting clip and a look into “the way it was”. Segovia definitely contributed to the re-popularization of the guitar, but his was a case of right place, right time. The guitar rose to ascendancy during the rock years of the 50’s and 60’s and widespread interest in the classical guitar during those years was a spin-off of interest in the guitar in general.
[/QUOTE]

You make a very good point there. However, the guitar - the ACOUSTIC guitar, even - is more popular now than ever. Has the classical guitar also continued to grow in popularity? If not, why not? This is a big question, of course, and could spark a lengthy debate... but maybe contemporary players are, to some extent, failing to convey to a wide audience something essential about the beauty, power, and allure of classical guitar music. Maybe the classical guitar world has become too aloof or narcissistic...? I don't know.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:09 am ]
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If you know Michael; as I am lucky to barly say I do; you would know Classical guitar and Classical music is still his true passion. I have a granddaughter under his tutelage at present at UNM. He is Head of one of the nations premier classical guitar studies there. However knowing Michael I also know he is a bit of a clown and a definite performer. This is where the classic rock renditions in his performances comes from. They are how Michael laughs. If you want to see Michael's passion for classical pick up one of his CD's I recommend "Portrait de Femme'" or on the classical fusion side "Land of Enchantment; pictures from New Mexico"
Author:  Dave White [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:12 am ]
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[QUOTE=Todd Rose] [QUOTE=TRein] A very interesting clip and a look into “the way it was”. Segovia definitely contributed to the re-popularization of the guitar, but his was a case of right place, right time. The guitar rose to ascendancy during the rock years of the 50’s and 60’s and widespread interest in the classical guitar during those years was a spin-off of interest in the guitar in general.
[/QUOTE]

You make a very good point there. However, the guitar - the ACOUSTIC guitar, even - is more popular now than ever. Has the classical guitar also continued to grow in popularity? If not, why not? This is a big question, of course, and could spark a lengthy debate... but maybe contemporary players are, to some extent, failing to convey to a wide audience something essential about the beauty, power, and allure of classical guitar music. Maybe the classical guitar world has become too aloof or narcissistic...? I don't know.[/QUOTE]

Todd,

With classical guitar you have to learn to read music and master some pretty exacting playing disciplines, and practice regimes. Playing folk/pop/rock on a nylon string doesn't give the same "sound" as a steel string either.

With a steel string ... three chords (or less) and away you go, mostly self taught and its "image" is way cool.

Not a judgement but a possible explanation.
Author:  John Elshaw [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:34 am ]
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[QUOTE=Todd Rose] [QUOTE=TRein] A very interesting clip and a look into “the way it was”. Segovia definitely contributed to the re-popularization of the guitar, but his was a case of right place, right time. The guitar rose to ascendancy during the rock years of the 50’s and 60’s and widespread interest in the classical guitar during those years was a spin-off of interest in the guitar in general.
[/QUOTE]

You make a very good point there. However, the guitar - the ACOUSTIC guitar, even - is more popular now than ever. Has the classical guitar also continued to grow in popularity? If not, why not? [/QUOTE]

I think the popularity of the classical guitar has steadily increased. Over the past 30 years, classical guitar programs in colleges and universities has gone from a couple dozen or so in the 70's, to over 400 today, and the best and brightest players are all fairly young. I think there are also more classical guitar societies than ever before. I don't think the state of classical guitar will ever be mainstream, but there are more than ever lined up to major in guitar performance in college. Also, I think the opportunities to support yourself as a classical player are better today than they've ever been. The arts are still vastly underpaid, but more are making a career out of it today than ever before, and that may be why we don't see a few big leaders, but rather a whole bunch of outstanding younger players (vidovic, azabagic, vieaux, any student of barreuco, etc..)
Author:  TRein [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:50 am ]
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[QUOTE=Todd Rose]
....However, the guitar - the ACOUSTIC guitar, even - is more popular now than ever. Has the classical guitar also continued to grow in popularity? If not, why not?...[/QUOTE]

There are many more distractions today than there were 30 or 40 years ago. Pay per View, Cable, CD's, iPods, etc. Attendance at classical music concerts is down across the board and many symphonic orchestras are struggling and surviving by their endowments, or going bust altogether. I don't think it is a case of the classical guitar performers not being able to convey the meaning and significance of the music. I believe the dwindling interest of the public in classical guitar has to do with the downward trend of support of classical music in general coupled with the fact that a guitar recital is more or less an acquired taste.
Author:  John Elshaw [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:08 am ]
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[QUOTE=Marc] [QUOTE=John Elshaw] ....intermediate player like Segovia ...[/QUOTE]

???????????????????[/QUOTE]

Don't get me wrong, Segovia will go down as one of the most influential classical guitarists, but it didn't take long after he died for people to abandon his arrangements and find better, more technically accurate ways of playing. Compare the two versions of Asturias below and you'll see what I mean. This song is generally considered easy intermediate level and is tackled by many in their 1st-2nd year in a college program. I lost count of the bad notes by Segovia. Disregard the difference in tempo and compare the two on musicality (ignore the awkward pauses by Segovia).

Segovia was the unquestioned "Padrone" in his day, but those were very different times.


Segovia


Ana    

Author:  JJ Donohue [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:25 am ]
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John, Colin, Michael, et al. ...thanks for posting this. I'm fascinated by your take on classical music and the personalities surrounding the art.

It's always nice to be educated and get to know what you guys who play in tuxedos and bow ties are thinking. We often get too focused in the steel string component and forget the instrument that started it all!

Keep it coming...
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:29 am ]
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[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] John, Colin, Michael, et al. ...thanks for posting this. I'm fascinated by your take on classical music and the personalities surrounding the art.

It's always nice to be educated and get to know what you guys who play in tuxedos and bow ties are thinking. We often get too focused in the steel string component and forget the instrument that started it all!

Keep it coming...[/QUOTE]

Me in a tux and bow-tie I don't think sooooooo At least not since 1977
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