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| Is it OK to use someone else’s design? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=12575 |
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| Author: | crazytooguy [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:43 am ] |
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I really like Steve Klein's guitar design and not being able to afford the genuine thing, I'd like to try building a guitar in the shape of the Kleins. I won't be selling it - it's for my use only. But is it OK to use someone's unique design? We've been copying Martins for decades, but the Klein is especially unique. Should I ask permission first, or does it matter if it's my personal guitar? Thanks! |
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| Author: | charliewood [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:54 am ] |
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Therewas a discussion of this nature a while back from what I remember There are people on the OLF who will say that you absolutely should contact a luthier out of repsect for thier work, and thier efforts in designing the instrument you so desire... and of course out of courtesy, and that likely, most luthiers being decent people.... will actually help you facilitate that construction of your instrument, with information etc. There are others who will tell you that its fine to build a one off of your favorite instrument as long as its for your own personal use. And that luthiers dont want to hear from EVERY person copying some part of thier design.. Then there are others who will say why bother making a Klein - that the purpose of luthierie is to create your own designs and youll be happier if you did etc I think that some even said "technically peoples proprietary designs cannot legally be copied even for ones own personal" use etc etc Ultimately in the end, its really your decision... Cheers Charliewood |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:04 am ] |
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Pat, if you want to make something based on the Klein guitars, you'll need to study the Kasha theories, which drive Steve's designs. Most folks in the guitar industry view the Kasha theory as a lot of hooey, but if you like the other aspects of Steve's designs then make something based on them. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, as they say. Most folks copy old Martin and Gibson designs because they work, and have proven their worth over generations. |
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| Author: | crazytooguy [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:18 am ] |
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Thanks, guys. I was thinking of asking Steve Klein, mostly to let him know that I like his designs. I wasn't planning on using the Kasha bracing and bridge - I have ways of doing those I like and that get me close to the sounds I want - but I love the "intersecting circles" design of the body, and I was planning on a jumbo for my next, which works. So, I'll let him know I want to use his body shapes. It should be interesting to see what he says. I may post some pics if I get it done anytime soon. Thanks! |
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:06 am ] |
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I have a personal opinion which is this; if you are inspired to build a guitar like <........>(fill the blank) contact them first and ask them, and if they give you the go-ahead, do it.....and give them credit at the end of the project for your design and inspirational source. |
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| Author: | peterm [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:57 am ] |
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I would contact the builder..... and give due credit. |
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| Author: | Billy T [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:15 am ] |
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[quote]Is it OK to use someone else’s design?[/quote]  Doesn't everybody?
I would contact, and they would likely help , but the PRS issue settled certain appearance legal concerns. Myself... personally, if the guitar came out looking to close to someone else's work, would indeliably brand it, so as to thwart fraud! If the guitar ever leaves my control I wouldn't want to be associated with that. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:24 am ] |
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I'm currently building an almost exact copy of a Torres guitar and I haven't asked him if it's OK. What! you mean he's dead! Colin |
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| Author: | KenH [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:09 am ] |
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I have typed a comment 3 times and erased it before I hit the post reply button. I'll hold that thought for a better conversation. In all respect, I think it would be a good thing to contact the builder and see if he will give his blessings on building under his design. In all liklihood, he will be thrilled that somneone else will want to use his design and give you all the help you need, maybe even a blueprint to go by. It may even help if you asked if the blueprints are available for purchase. |
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| Author: | charliewood [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:19 am ] |
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The semantics that ensued last time this issue came up was that people sometimes consider it a ripoff issue, utter lack of originality perhaps, or fruad of some sort - instead of what it really is IMHO... an homage. I think that most builder wear the influence on thier sleeve so blatantly as to remove all doubt as to the inspiration for thier build,,,sort of like a band that loves Zeppelin, will sound like them at times. The forgers art is another matter altogether and has no place here. I dont see that Sylvans Home DePaule, is a heinous ripoff but a glorious nod to Bob Taylor, Gibson(McCarty), and Benedetto.. all in one fell swoop, as well as a display of Sylvans immense talent and vision. Still lovin that axe Sylvan! If you cant afford something that really intruiges you the only thing "To Do" is to make a copy of it somehow. Like all those kids making thier own Strats, basses, and homemade amps in the 60's when they werent easy to come by. Also see Leo Fender Bassman and the mighty Marshalls that followed, and all the other innovations in history,,, incl the Famed Xbrace, acreditted to Martin ... but copied by him from other sources most definitely. So I wonder if C.F. considered his Xbraced designs an homage? or something more sinister? Im sure the original luthier would be as impressed with what C.F. accomplished, as we all are! Cheers Charliewood |
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| Author: | charliewood [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:24 am ] |
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My previous statement is just my private thoughts on the matter and mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.. they certainly werent posted to incite debate on the matter - or to contradict anyone elses opinion & I hope that people will recieve it in that spirit it was offered. Just my $.02 Cheers Charliewood |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:51 am ] |
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So if you contact Klein and he says NO! what will you do? |
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:04 am ] |
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Sometimes it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Al |
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:05 am ] |
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That was a joke. Al |
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:09 am ] |
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I contacted Mr Laskin to get his permission to use his armrest design. He thanked me for asking, and granted permission. I once contacted Taylor guitars requesting info on the stain used on my 612. They gave me the brand, stock#, phone # of the supplier, and info on how they applied it. This seems to be pretty typical. Al |
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| Author: | jimsamuel [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:00 pm ] |
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Does the idea of asking permission apply to every luthier who bases his or her dreadnoughts on a prewar Martin D28? Jim |
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| Author: | crazytooguy [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:08 pm ] |
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I like the idea of branding it so no one ever thinks it a real Klein (not that that's very likely - I doubt my skills are up to those of Mr. Klein). I don't plan on copying the headstock anyway - just the body shape. I guess if he says "No way", I'll just build a "normal" jumbo out of respect. I expect, though, that he won't object. It'll be neat to communicate with such a famous luthier. I'll let y'all know what he says! |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:27 pm ] |
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How much of the guitar needs to be different before we can label it as 'our' model? After all, we all have holes on top, similar bracing (if not identical from a plan), almost every plantilla size has been done, many common bridge shapes, headstock shapes, dimensions, wood combos, etc. Artistic stuff aside, I bet there's very little on a Klein guitar that you couldn't find already done elsewhere. John |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:31 pm ] |
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I once asked another builder if they would mind if I incorporated one of their details into one of my instruments, they requested that I didn't, which I respected. No hard feelings. I think it's just common curtesy to ask. |
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| Author: | RobLak [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:08 am ] |
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This is a great question and it would be nice if someone with a legal background could answer. I did some reading on Wiki and it really seems to be a matter of where you live. Australia seems to prohibit copying anything without the creator's permission, even for personal use only, while Canada seems to allow anything to be copied for your own use. The US, as typical, seems a morass of whereas's, here-to-fore's and other mumbo jumbo. Sounds like the safe thing to do is to contact the builder and ask. Rob |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:06 am ] |
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ISTM, when a luthier puts a plan out there in a book or makes them available for purchase, that is pretty much tantamount to permission to use his/her design. Ripping off a trade secret that is not published or made available, is something else again. |
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