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| Attn: Montreal Guitar Show Exhibitors http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=12622 |
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| Author: | Tim McKnight [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:23 am ] |
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I just received this email response about my question of bringing Brazilian RW or Mahogany guitars / components accross the border: "If the instruments have components made from Brazilian Rosewood, Honduran Mahogany and Ivory then these are prohibited under Cites. However, a special permit may be issued for their importation by Environment Canada. They can be reached toll free at 1.800.668.6767 or if that phone number cannot be accessed from the USA then try 1.819.997.1840." I hope you will be prepaped and this will save you some grief at the border... |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:32 am ] |
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Tim, I hope I am wrong (and I often am), but I suspect you may find that there will be an equal and greater amount of grief in getting these permits. The amount of paperwork, proof and time in getting CITES certificates is huge, plus you need one for every part of the guitar that is made from Braz RW eg fingerboard, bridgeplate, headstock veneer, back, sides etc. etc. Good luck and have a great and hopefully profitable time in Canada. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:31 am ] |
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Tim- You pointed out in the 'Guitar Show Etiquette' thread that you don't sell/deliver guitars at shows outside the US, instead taking deposit/payment and shipping the guitar from the US once you return home. Exhibitors who have this policy printed in their handout materials will have one very good argument to present at the border, if questioned. It seems to me (no lawyer or Customs broker) that you are not really 'importing' your guitars into Canada in this case- they are really more like 'samples' which you are carrying with your personal effects. I don't see how you will run up against a lot of commercial paperwork in this scenario. I've crossed the border with (up to 5) guitars a number of times (driving through the US to get to/from E. Canada) and I've never been asked about CITES, or what woods are in the guitars. For Canadians, stopping at Canadian Customs on the way into the US and getting an official 'receipt' that you have the instruments in the car is some insurance that you will not be asked to pay taxes when you come back into Canada. I imagine a similar system is in place for US citizens, and might be useful. Of course, if you show up at the border with a truck full of guitars with your 'Guitar Builder' logo on the sides, you will quickly end up in the 'Commercial Imports' division with all the paperwork. A lot of this stuff works on the 'don't ask, don't tell' system- border officials are so busy they can't even check out the containers and trucks- they are really not interested in doing a lot of paperwork for a few guitars. Of course, if you show up and say "I have some Brazilian Rosewood in the back, is it OK to bring it into Canada?" you will be in for a long day. The argument about Honduran mahogany is a little funny- I can buy it at my local hardwood lumberyard. The manager there was saying that the main concern was importation of pests in lumber shipments (not CITES-he'd never heard of it), and that practically all lumber they get must be kiln-dried (or have paperwork that says so). Cheers (and good luck) John |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:11 am ] |
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My understanding is that S. Macrophyla is on the agenda at the current CITES meeting. There was a piece on NPR (Marketplace) about it a week or more ago, with an interview with Chris Martin. The biggest flap now, though, is over pernambuco, the wood violin bows are made of. In theory CITES applies to import and export of materials; _sales_ across borders. In practice, the enforcement is on _transport_ across borders. After all, how are you going to prove you won't sell that BRW guitar? If you do, how are they going to catch it? The authorities have to assume that any of this material that they catch at the border is going to be sold, and they can confiscate it if they want to. The argument that 'they're too busy' to bother with me and my one little guitar is probably true. I could probably go out and stand on the highway for some time in safety, too. I've decided that I'm not going to do either. The thing is that I'm in favor of what they're trying to do, and I've seen it coming for a long time. That's one reason I've put so much work into alternative woods and acoustics, so that, when the time came, I'd be ready to build great guitars out of the woods I can get. I will say that the current methods of enforcement are clumsy. NAMM is trying, I gather, to get a process in place where a bow, say, made of pre-CITES pernambuco, would carry a certificate that would allow the owner to carry it across any border. Rather than having the paperwork be about the act of crossing the border, and requiring a new set for avery such action, the paprerwork would apply to the piece. This would at least be much easier on traveling musicians, and guys like us who take things to shows that we don't intend to sell. There is still the problem of tracking sales, of course. However, this type of process would put the burden of proof on the government where it belongs. There is at least one huge subtext to all of this; whether the CITES regs actually get at the real problem, or, perhaps, make it worse. It could be argued that they worked to some extent in the ivory trade, but I have my doubts as to whether the same method will work for wood. The discussion has been going on for thirty years, at least, and will no doubt continue for many years to come. At some level it doesn't matter, of course; we're stuck with the law as it is and have to live with it. |
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| Author: | Tim McKnight [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:12 am ] |
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Case in point, just look on ebay. They are selling BRZ sets directly exported from Brazil with NO paperwork. Hmmmm.... |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:31 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Mr. Tim McKnight] Case in point, just look on ebay. They are selling BRZ sets directly exported from Brazil with NO paperwork. Hmmmm....[/QUOTE] Yeah, they are. Of course if the government wanted to get the information from eBay, they could seize the merchandise and arrest the individual who buys it as the post office delivers it. So if you buy that stuff, you're taking a risk. The reality is, there aren't enough U.S. Customs officials to go after every little illegal transaction that happens every day like these. It is pretty much black market trade when you think about it, from a legal standpoint. |
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| Author: | WarrenG [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:50 am ] |
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Without getting into the legal aspects of CITES, there is a great document at Bluegrass Wales which explains your requirements. I don;t think Canada Border Services makes a distinction between luthiers and musicians. Aren't you all both anyways? 
What the email failed to mention to Tim is that an EXPORT permit from the country of origin is required as well as IMPORT permit into Canada. See this Environment Canada CITES table. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:41 am ] |
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Warren, Alan- Thanks for the links and info. I stand corrected- probably it's not worth the risk of trying to take this CITES stuff across borders. A few thoughts: 1) Rainforest is being destroyed (burned, mostly) primarily to clear for farmland for the ever-increasing numbers of people on the planet, not for logging Brazilian rosewood or H. mahogany. But, I guess we are all supposed to feel better about treaties like CITES (increasing the paperwork for the lawyers and govt officials), rather than attacking the real problem... Just wait till your grandchildren are living on a 10 billion-person planet if you think this is bad. 2) Gosh, I'm really glad I can't afford Braz RW! 3) At least Honduras mahogany in instruments is not affected. Only lumber in plank form (like the stuff at the local lumberyard??) is banned. 4) Good luck finding a Customs officer that can tell the difference between mastodon fossil ivory (CITES exempt) and ivory from your granny's old piano (not exempt). 5) The folks who are going to make real money out of all this are the 'official' instrument appraisers and lawyers and brokers who are expert in this stuff. Guess who are the main people supporting more regs like this, and testifying before legislative committees? It kinda just makes your head spin, huh? Cheers John |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:26 am ] |
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I think my initial thought has already been voiced, but will a person at the boarder even know what brazilian rosewood is? |
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| Author: | Tim McKnight [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:42 pm ] |
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James, Probably not but, I suspect, if they want to be nasty they could seize instruments on suspicion. I am not taking anything that remotely resembles Brz just to be on the safe side of the law. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:05 pm ] |
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Tim- One thing that Customs agents do these days (a lot) is to check you (or your purchases) out on the internet. I've had agents check out eBay purchases, dog breeders, etc. Since you have deleted the picture of the BrazRW from the Tonewoods section on your website, it might be a good idea to delete the name as well. Then you can point the officials to your website for a quick 'wood ID' lesson if they are in doubt. Cheers John |
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| Author: | Kahle [ Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:13 am ] |
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I can't imagine those guys gettin too upset about you bringin guitars to a guitar show unless said guitars were packed with illicit substances or very small people fleeing prosecution! But I could be wrong. 
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:24 am ] |
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Does anyone know the species name for African Mahogany? Not sapele. And are we positive that it isn't on the list? |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:43 pm ] |
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You mean Khaya? Khaya is a genus; there are about 5 species. I think K. ivorensis (Ivory Coast) is the one most commonly exported as African mahogany. |
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