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OK I have the MJ plans ready to submit to Lance for inclusion in the library of plans. I am going to proof them tonight and email them to Lance in the morning. It may take a few days or so for Lance to get them up on the site but they are ready to submit. I think you will like this one


This is not the plans

Nice, Michael. Thanks for such a fine design and for your time in making the plans available.

What is the history behind this model? Also...what is the specified body depth? TIA.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Sweet! Thanks so much Michael!
What a great addition!

We will have to have the files cleared with our printer before we can offer them up. There has been both font issues and scale issues in the past, so we will want to be sure that we have it 100% compatible.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Can't wait.

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Aoibeann

Lance wrote; "There has been both font issues and scale issues in the past, so we will want to be sure that we have it 100% compatible."

This statement confuses me greatly? The DWFs I provide are viewable & printable plot file-raster images. To the plotter-printer software the text is only lines art there is no embedded text code in a DWF file like there is in a DWG file. In other words every thing on a DWF file is just a series of dots to be printed at a given geometric location. So I have a hard time understanding how font could be an issue.

The scale issue is equally hard for me to understand. The DWFs I provide the forum are plotted at 1/1 If printed at 1/1 they will be to full scale less paper shrinkage and or printer tracking error, which neither of us have control over. If the printer is printing on less than 48" x 36" media then the printer has to decrease the scale The border on the drawings is 47" x 35". This gives a 1/2" clear perimeter around a 48" x 36".

The scale issue has to be printer error IMO
I don't understand at all how font can be any kind of issue.

Michael, I am even more confused than you
I don't know how any of this stuff works.

I do know that the first revision of the Aj plans were printed, packed and ready to ship when at the last minute we noticed that the Fonts did not print, but instead little square boxes where in there place. So, the DWF files were changed to TIFF files and then reprinted, and carefully checked for scale.

Brock has a much better handle on this than I do, as he has been working with the printer directly.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

The AJs I do not know about as I did not draw it. If the printer is changing formats from DWF to TIFF then I see how scale will be an issue. I would then also assume that line quality, arc accuracy and other issue exist as TIFFs are notoriously bad about distorting precision geometry.

Not to have too many cooks in the kitchen, but... I hope these are being printed at a place that specializes in architectural blueprints and not a place like Kinko's. They should easily be able to handle a .dwf file and get it printed with the right scale and all the fonts.

I could tell something had happened on the AJ plans, as the curved lines were all choppy because of the low resolution of the tiff file. It also looked like it may have lost any lineweight info, though I never saw the original plan.

I think the dwf does use fonts, though, it's not just a raster image of dots like a jpeg or bitmap. I would think the font info would be embedded or something in the dwf file, as it's specifically made for sharing drawings with people who don't have Autocad.

Maybe Michael should be put in touch with the printer directly so he can work out the details on how the printer likes to get the files. I've worked with a place that had me load up the printer driver for their plotter and then plot to a .plt file and email him the files. Worked great, and it put me in control of how the drawings were plotted. Different places have different methods, though, you just gotta talk to the guy who will actually print them.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I use to have all the plans printed at Office Max. They would sub them out to a local printer here in Jackson.

Since then we have been trying to find a printer that would work on a fullfilment basis, instead of having to stock X amout of plans.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

The DWG files that DWFs are generated from are the only place that bear the font codes, line-weight and line type info. The DWF origination plot process reads the DWG files definitions and assigns raster dots to form the shapes and letters in a very high resolution format, but bears none of the font code or line-weights in its self. A DWF is just a highly accurate Raster image only. once created it is only dots Just like a tiff with the exception of being very accurate and high resolution If DWFs contained the font code the the text would be editable. DWFs are not editable. They can be redlined with the right software but this is a layer over process and the original image is not changed but marked over

[QUOTE=MichaelP] The DWG files that DWFs are generated from are the only place that bear the font codes, line-weight and line type info. The DWF origination plot process reads the DWG files definitions and assigns raster dots to form the shapes and letters in a very high resolution format, but bears none of the font code or line-weights in its self. A DWF is just a highly accurate Raster image only. once created it is only dots Just like a tiff with the exception of being very accurate and high resolution If DWFs contained the font code the the text would be editable. DWFs are not editable. They can be redlined with the right software but this is a layer over process and the original image is not changed but marked over[/QUOTE]


I am like Lance... I really don't have the first clue about how any of these CAD files work, but I have been working with a local blueprint repro shop to get these made.

Some plans like the OM and SJ print great... no problems. But the AJ continues to give them fits, and the Woolson/Fox Neck Jig and a couple of the others look fine, but are not at a precise 1:1 scale.

As I understand it though... their process involves passing the file to their printer and it then translates it into "machine code" and that seems to be where the problem exists.

IIRC to get the AJ plans to work correctly John Watkins spent a lot of time on the phone with their folks to resolve this and I think they ended up eventually getting a TIFF file to work. I just tried running another AJ batch, but they came out at the wrong scale.

Our hope is that once we have the bugs worked out with our printer that they can print and mail these for us one-off. That will be a huge help to us and it will be a much faster turn around time for you guys when you buy them.

We are putting an order form in place now that will automate much of this process, we just need to get the kinks worked out with the printer.

Michael, if you want to send me the drawings I will run a sample set with them on Monday and we can see how they net out. As I said the OM and SJ plans work great. So maybe we won't have any problems.   

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I stand corrected on the raster/vector dwf issue... I always thought it was kind of like pdf in that it did retain font info. Anyway...

Some places also need a vector file like a .plt or the original dwg, depending on their plotter. For my local place, it was going to be about $2 a sheet if I submitted a .plt file, or about $50 a sheet if I submitted a pdf, since they had to use the large format color printer to do pdf or other raster images. That was about 5 years ago, though, that's likely changed.

The more middlemen you can eliminate between you and the printer is the best/cheapest/easiest/most accurate way to plot big drawings. Search for "reprographics" in Jackson and go straight to the local place instead of Office Depot. I did a quick search and found ABC Reprographics in Jackson. If they didn't do full-on order fulfillment and shipping, they could probably at least keep your files on hand and you could just email when you have orders. Shouldn't be more than a couple bucks a sheet.

Hope I'm not being a nag here, I hope this is helpful advice. Let me know if I should keep my fool mouth shut. :)

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

OK so this issue is really with the AJ plans. Good well not good but glad that mine are working ok.

Brock I will be sending the MJ plans here in about an hour or less. The entire format is identical as my previous plans so I doubt there will be any issue with them.

Brock I don't know if you want to do this or not but if I had a DWG file of the AJ plans In a day I could format them to work just like the OM, SJ and MJ as far as the DWF file is concerned if you thik this would help out. That is up to you two.

The plans, the plans

Michael, when I took the label file you made me to Kinkos as a DWF, they told me they didn't have any software that was compatible. Now it may have just been an ignorant clerk and fortunately I solved my own printer problem and was able to print them on my own computer. But mayhaps there is some sort of incompatibility.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Pdf should be just as functional as a dwf, with the bonus that nearly everyone knows what a pdf is. It does require Adobe Acrobat (not the free Acrobat Reader) to make them, which isn't cheap. In my job I use pdf's almost exclusively to share drawings if the recipient doesn't have Autocad.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

That may be th case in some locations but if so it is there falt as the software is available on the web and is 100% free.

PDFs are mot near as accurate graphically as DWFs but a DWFs functionality is specific to viewing and printing only as where a PDF is usable as an embedded image. You can't do that with a DWG it is only viewable and printable via Autodesks DWF viewer Software. DWF is designed as a way to give cad high def plots and viewing with out the need for cad software. PDF and tiff files do not interpret the line weight and edge quality as defined in the cad plot definitions file. They assign the visible line weight to a line. On most professionally drawn cad files the line may look the same width on the monitor but plot at different widths as assigned in a plot definition file. PDFs and tiffs require the lines to appear on the file as a line that shows the width in order to reproduce that width. I am not knocking PDFs It is just that DWFs are a different creature that looks at the plot definitions in the autocad file and generates the raster image accordingly. PDF does not look at the plot definitions it looks at the lines them self.

We set layers to our autocad drawings, one for object or visible lines, one for hidden lines one for center lines and on and on. each has a plot definition assigned to that specifies the width and line type it will plot out at. If viewed on the monitor they all appear the same width but when plotted each line type has its own line width. PDF will not pick up this difference unless it is physically applied to the the line as a polyline width which takes time that not needed if width is assigned at plot routine instead. DWF plots read the entire assigned cad parameters and generates the output accordingly. This includes arc smoothness assigned line weights everything that is assigned in cad. and also does it in a smaller file size than PDF or Tiff and at far greater resolution. It is really hard to compare DWF to PDF for there intent are vastly different. Each are great tools but to reproduce accurate plots of cad drawings for large format printing DWF is the tool if plot and smoothness definitions are assigned in the cad file.

With the more recent versions of Autocad you can assign lineweights to lines and set the printer (whether it's a physical printer or Acrobat) to print them that way, instead of using polylines or assigning colors/layers in the plotter settings.

Regardless, whatever you're doing, keep doing it, because your plans look great.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Yes this is true, you can. But we choose not to because this would mean that we would have to go back through our previously drawings and change their plot routine. and that is over 18000 drawing Or we would have to deal with two different drawings and plot formats. We Chose to keep a layer based pen assignment format.

I have to back up and say new versions of PDF will read line widths and arc smoothness. It had been so long since we used PDF to transmit drawings I had not realised this. But PDFs are graphically editable via Acrobat. DWFs are not editable period witch is the intent; to provide readable printable detailed and high resolution drawings while protecting engineering and intellectual security by being 100% un-editable and non electonicly copied. Really that is the big difference in PDFs and DWF. I know that no one can edit my DWFs them self or they can not make electronic copies that can be edited. This is not the case with PDFs. For some this may be no big issue but for my company it is a huge issue. There are minor, major and overseas companies that regularly try to take our designs make copies, change minor details and call them their intellectual content

Jon I am aware of the changes to line width, pen and other settings since Ac2000. We are provided with the latest updates the day of each release. As we are on the partner program with Autodesk. In fact we are currently running 2008.0 and installing 2008.1 Monday or Tuesday

I wish I could get some of those....

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com