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12 string bridge spacing-a dumb question
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=12770		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:39 am ]
Post subject: 
A dumb question. On specs, you commonly see string spacing at the bridge
listed. On a 12 string is that number typically from the outer strings 1 to 12
or the typical spacing of one of the sets of six. ( string 1 to 11 or 2 to 12)


Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Anyone...Anyone.... Bueller Bueller
Author:  KiwiCraig [ Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:57 am ]
Post subject: 

Andy, I'm pretty sure it's the complete width of the strings in total . i.e. 1 to 12.

Incidently ,the 12 string I am building has a 2 3/8" spacing at the saddle . ( 1 15/16 " at the nut ) . What are the spacings on your new one ?

Regards Craig
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Craig
Mine is 1 7/8ths at the nut and 2 5/16ths at the saddle
Author:  KiwiCraig [ Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:39 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks again Andy.

I have a question which is kind of related .

With a pinned 12 string bridge . The string pair spacing are dictated by the width of the actual bridge pin diamater . I have found them to be too far apart on some arrangements , even when the string is nudging the front pin on it's way to the saddle.

On my bridge design ,I have the thinner course of strings use the rear set of pins. My reasoning being ,that the thinner course ( being a smaller diameter ) would end up closer to it's mating string at the saddle . After studying other makers choices , I've found some do it this way , and others don't.

The only other ways I can think of having closer pairs is making a pinless bridge . I just don't feel comfortable having a pinless with all that extra string pull. I did think of using a bridge with six shared pin holes , but concern myself with the little nub left between the pair . How long will that last ?

I also thought of having a hybrid type bridge . i.e. Six strings using pins ,and the thinner ones being pinless . This doesn't solve the spacing issue though , as the thinner set still has to pass by the pinned set , so the bridge pin diameter still dictate the pair spacing.

Anyone out there have a brilliant answer ? I'd sure like to hear it.

Sorry Andy , didn't mean to highjack your thread but it is kind of related
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:05 am ]
Post subject: 
On mine I use 1/16th spacing between strings in a pair.
What I have done is use my dremel to carve a bit of a groove in the front
bridge pin. This allows me to have the string pass in a straight manor.

You have to be careful placing the strings too close together.
ESPECIALLY on the the low E. The plucking of the low E (11th) causes a
considerable wave pattern and it will buzz against the 12th string.
Does that make sense.

Using the thinner course strings to the rear makes a lot of sense.
Less likelihood the hit the front pin.
Author:  Don A [ Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Andy, in case you might be interested, Tracy at Luthier Suppliers offers a 2002 Larivee 12 string neck template. It has 1 7/8" nut.
Author:  KiwiCraig [ Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

Appreciate all those tips Andy.

Cheers Craig
Author:  Dave White [ Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=KiwiCraig] Thanks again Andy.

I have a question which is kind of related .

With a pinned 12 string bridge . The string pair spacing are dictated by the width of the actual bridge pin diamater . I have found them to be too far apart on some arrangements , even when the string is nudging the front pin on it's way to the saddle.

On my bridge design ,I have the thinner course of strings use the rear set of pins. My reasoning being ,that the thinner course ( being a smaller diameter ) would end up closer to it's mating string at the saddle . After studying other makers choices , I've found some do it this way , and others don't.

The only other ways I can think of having closer pairs is making a pinless bridge . I just don't feel comfortable having a pinless with all that extra string pull. I did think of using a bridge with six shared pin holes , but concern myself with the little nub left between the pair . How long will that last ?

I also thought of having a hybrid type bridge . i.e. Six strings using pins ,and the thinner ones being pinless . This doesn't solve the spacing issue though , as the thinner set still has to pass by the pinned set , so the bridge pin diameter still dictate the pair spacing.

Anyone out there have a brilliant answer ? I'd sure like to hear it.

Sorry Andy , didn't mean to highjack your thread but it is kind of related[/QUOTE]

Craig,

Howard Klepper gave me the answer when I was making my guitar-cittern that had 5 pairs of strings. Drill 6 holes and put two strings per hole - slotted bridge. You use the ebony oversize 5 degree bridge pins that Stew Mac sells. This is the picture Howard sent me (hope he doesn't mind me posting it):



And this is what I did on the guitar-cittern:

Author:  KiwiCraig [ Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:02 am ]
Post subject: 

That's some great work Dave ( and Howard too , of course ) . Thanks for your post.
You may remember I wrote you about shared pin holes some time back . The concern was how long will that little nub of wood (between the string pair ) hold out.
It is very small and has half the force of two strings pulling at it , and a lot of wear from the two string balls which must be near touching each other.
Now that you have had yours strung up for some time , what are your feelings regarding this ?

Regards, Craig
Author:  Dave White [ Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=KiwiCraig]
That's some great work Dave ( and Howard too , of course ) . Thanks for your post.
You may remember I wrote you about shared pin holes some time back . The concern was how long will that little nub of wood (between the string pair ) hold out.
It is very small and has half the force of two strings pulling at it , and a lot of wear from the two string balls which must be near touching each other.
Now that you have had yours strung up for some time , what are your feelings regarding this ?

Regards, Craig[/QUOTE]

Craig,

I can't really comment as I haven't seen Gavin and the guitar-cittern since he collected it last September. I thought that the whole point of a properly slotted bridge is that the wear on the bridge plate was minimal as the ball ends fit properly and don't move around at all - you can take the pins out under string tension and the strings stay rock solid put. Also with the 12 string you have octave strings so the slots are narrower than on the unison paired guitar-cittern I did. Cut carefully and properly with a good hardwood bridgeplate installed and I think it will be fine.

Best way is make yourself a 12 string as a test model (good excuse huh ) and see how it goes. If I were to make myself one I would do the double string per hole.
Author:  Dave White [ Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Craig,

Also the ball ends of the string pairs will support each other when put in at the correct orientation. This tutorial by Bryan Kimsey is the best one on bridge slotting that I have come across.
Author:  KiwiCraig [ Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Cheers Dave ! . I have read that tutorial before , but one more time is a good thing .
I never thought of the balls supporting each other , but it makes complete sense to me , now I think about it. . According to my calculations the balls would have to be touching , or very close to it , given the size hole of the Stewmac oversize pins and the size of a ballend. Am I right in thinking that when the the strain comes on the ballend , they would be forced together and support each other ?

Regards ,Craig
Author:  Dave White [ Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Craig,

I think you have to make sure that you push the two strings in with the ball ends parallel to the fingerboard (by that I mean the ball ends if not attached to the strings would roll along the fretboard rather than perpendicular to it )and lock them with the pin this way while the strings are tensioned. The string pull is upwards and so won't force them one way or the other. You could end up with them slightly splayed. These things have a mind of their own which generally means they will point in whatever direction is not the one you want them in
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