Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi Hesh,
Like you, I was curious about the fretting/"Rice" thread. I never really
thought there was much to fretting and felt like I achieve very good
results. And I am very curious to hear some further info from Rick.
Primarily, his definition of a perfect fret job - I think that would be very
helpful.

I always equate good action/playability with a comfortable neck profile
with a string height over the entire fretboard that is user-friendly and
with no buzzing or problems. To achieve this, I have always thought that
you need to start with a perfectly level fretboard and perfectly level frets
with a nice crown. A perfect neck angle with no hump or decline at the
body. And a small amount of relief in the neck.

I think if you can achieve the above...then you can also accomodate many
different playing styles. You should be able to get very low action for
fingerstyle players with no buzzing. Simple things like allowing a little
extra height at the low E nut will still give you very low action but allow
the drop tunings to not buzz. In other words, if you can start with
everything perfect then you are able to adjust the action for each
individual player.

My process is as follows:
1) My neck angle and upper bout angle are always identical and my upper
bout is well braced. The upper bout angle is ramped to give the proper
neck angle. I usually try to have the end result of a fretboard that hits at
or just above my bridge. The Neck Tenon jig created by Charles Fox
works brilliantly and allows you to mate the neck angle perfectly to the
body and eliminates a possiblity of a fretboard hump at the body. You do
have to have the upper bout ramped perfectly in advance.

2) I use StewMac's aluminum radius beam to level the fretboard within
0.001" of perfect flat.

3) I use stainless steel frets and press them in with AR glue in the fret
slot. I like stainless steel frets because they seem to be made to tighter
tolerance and require much less fret leveling. Nevertheless, I usually have
to do a slight leveling after the neck is attached to the body. I also bevel
the fret ends at this time.

4) I then glue the fretboard to the neck. I use a dual-acting truss-rod so I
don't worry too much about the neck bowing. In my experience, any
bowing is very, very minimal and easily corrected by the rod. I use the
Stew-Mac plastic clamping bands. They exert plenty of force and that
force is evenly applied across the fretboard. I use about 7 of them and a
couple cam clamps for the fretboard at the heel.

5) Before finishing, I temporarily attach the neck (I use a M-T hardware
joint). At this point, I do the final fretwork. I make sure the frets are
level. Perfectly level with no exception and that the neck angle is spot on.
I go ahead and crown what I need to and buff the frets. I hate rounded
fret ends - I think they are unattractive. I like seeing a flat ramp on the
fret ends. However, I take great care to make sure they are very smoothly
transitioned and feel slick when sliding your hand down the neck.

6) For final set-up, I personally like medium action because I do a lot of
strumming but also fingerstyle as well. I want a small amount of relief in
the neck.

7) Saddle placement is very exact and I usually don't have much trouble
getting good intonation. At the nut, I set the treble strings on line with
the fret height. The bass strings I leave just a wee bit more height to
prevent buzzing on the low strings when they are plucked with great
strength.

This method has given me repeatable and accurate results. The
playability of my guitars is quite good.

I am hoping Rick might chime in here and share a few insights.

Peace Out,
Simon

I chimed in elsewhere on some of this.

We have several different methods and it depends on the style of the neck.

My ultimate goal is to put the frets in and not touch them. I'll be able to speak more about that down the line when I've proved to myself that we can do it neck after neck after neck. It involves extreme high precision frets and some special insertion tooling. This system should get the labor for putting frets in level and just right down to about eight minutes. We've almost done that, and the snags we hit we understand. There are no mysteries to solve, just some issues of what path among several is the easiest and cheapest. Until I get that worked out completely, it's all about fbd. prep and consistent fret insertion. I don't have any secrets, it's all in logic, practice, and consistent craftsmanship while understanding that each fingerboard is just a bit different from the last and the next.   If you do this a few hundred times, you might just get good at it.   You might start off good at it and get worse, too!

Though some may consider this horrendous, I rinse my rice until the
water runs clear. We cook some type of rice, beans and vegetable theme
at least a few nights per week. White basmati is our staple, but you have
to be really selective where you get it from. Find a good source and stick
with it, because bad basmati can be pretty bad.

It's primarily the starches on the outside of the grains that are
responsible for making rice sticky, and this is why the rinsing is so
important for things like pilaf and some stir fry dishes. It really makes the
rice very loose, and is also excellent for making fried rice dishes. I've even
gone to the extent of boiling and straining rice like a pasta for some
dishes, but I feel that might be sacrificing just a little too much flavor.

For things like sweet and sour chicken however, where we may want the
really clumpy rice to serve with it you can't beat short grain white rice.
Short grain rice is generally much higher in starches and sticks together
very nicely. For this I would never rinse the rice because I want the
starches. A bit of oil to coat the grains, add the water and bring to a boil.
As soon as just starts to boil bring it right down to a low simmer and DO
NOT TOUCH IT - no more stirring!! Twenty minutes and it will be perfect.
I used to steam rice quite a bit, but for some reason I really like this
better. You can tip over the pan and slice it with a knife. And while
recipes may call for medium grain, I think the high starches in short grain
rice make it great for cinnamon rice or rice pudding as well.

Trust me, I know my rice - It's pretty much all I ate during my first few
years as a "luthier".....

As to the fret work, I'll try to post a tutorial of some of my procedures
later in the week.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

This may sound smug, but I've always thought of fretting as one of the easiest parts of building a guitar.

As many of you know I build my necks with an extension for the fingerboard, so my fingerboards are not glued down. I fret my necks off of the guitar after the board is glued to the neck.

The last thing I want to do is start hitting my frets with a hammer, (OK I just tap the ends with a very small dead blow to locate them) so I press them in using an arbor press and a radiused caul in a hardwood block.

Before doing this however I believe the critical part is to get the fingerboard absolutely flat along its length, I will spend some time on this with radiused sanding blocks and a straight edge.

Then, just press them in with the arbor press and once three have gone in, start to check them with a small straight edge for any that are high, and press them in more if needed, I check this every fret as I work along the board.

When finished, clip and dress the ends, and the job is done. I have never had to start running a file along the top of the frets to level them, if the board is level and you check as you go then the fret tops should be level, and if you press them rather than hammer them then they shouldn't have damaged tops either.

My favourite fret wire is made by Sintoms Ltd, the scientific production firm in Minsk, Belarus.



Of course on my lutes I just tie the frets on after I've got it all strung up, a refret is a doddle, I have even changed a fret on stage!

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

David,

Can I come to your house for dinner?
My wife and I love rice dishes! Ever try “Arborio Risotto”?
Chicken Risotto for one, and it makes an excellent rice pudding!

Hesh,

Since I’m quite the newbe here at guitar building, I’m not sure if the way I’ve done it will be of any
interest to you. However, I’d be happy to describe what process I went through, if you want to
hear about it?

Robert

_________________
Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

Colin: would that be Touchstone Tonewood's fretwire, then?

Hesh - you can get stainless fretwire from LMI.

Cheers

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------------------------------------------------------
Bob Connor
Geelong, Australia

As long as you come out with a level FB and frets that are nicely dressed your approach works! Right?

I could spend an hour writing my process but it much the same as many others. So I will instead tell you Why I use my process.

First off I am one that final levels and frets after gluing down the FB. I do this because it gives a chance to get it on plane and if by chance the dreaded 14th or 12 hump happens, I can eliminate it without reworking the neck. It has been my 10th build since I have had an issue there.I am now near 50 total builds and 30 commissions but as I learned to build this was a common issue for me. So that is drove me to my approach. I feel that final leveling the FB after glue up insures my outcome. Doing final FB leveling after glue up means I have to fret after finishing as my finish is complete prior to attaching the neck, (Classical with Spanish heels are the exception)

I press using a JawsII and my aluminum FB Radius sanding block and the new press attachment for the sanding block ( See StewMac's site).

All this means that I have to be careful pressing and dressing as to not mare my finish but that is not a biggie if you take your time.

I do mine almost exactly like Colin. I use a caul (Cumpiano) under the extension while those are pressed in.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I think I understand the process of leveling frets on a level fingerboard, but how do you deal with a classical board that is dished on the bass side for additional relief on the larger strings, on a neck that is not adjustable?  I have done a refret on a classical, and it came out fine, but the board was level, not dished, and from everything I have read, of late, giving the relief on the bass strings really improves the action on a classical.  I know it is probably not as critical, but unless I want a GLO when I'm finished, it seems like a valid question.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=terken] Hey Colin,
What's your technique for pressing 10-14 over the curve of the heel. I've
tried various options and none have been totally satisfactory. BTW I use a
total bolt-on neck so I attach the finished neck, level the fretboard, then
detach and press them in
Thanks
Terry[/QUOTE]

Terry, as I use a heel without a tenon, for most of frets 10-14 frets the heel just fits into the cut out of the press, I do use a shaped caul that I moulded so that I don't mark the underside of the neck. The only one I have trouble with now is 14 and for that I use a block of steel between the press and the caul holder to spread the pressure sideways, same principle as SMs Jaws 3, I suppose.

My necks just bolt on with the two main neck bolts, the Fingerboard extension is not bolted down nor the FB glued down, just sits in its pocket in the headblock.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Every ting I have found on Classical guitars have pretty much flat FB the additional relief would be in the nut and saddle set up ie. a tad more string clearance but not much. At least this is what I have found in the literature I have. Not being an experienced Classical builder I to am interested.

Thanks for starting this thread, Hesh.

I don't do anything out of the ordinary.  I did find that it was easier to get low action after I switched to a compound radius board.  I have  a simple jig for sanding the radius on an edge sander.

In addition to reducing chip out when removing frets, beveling the slot edges seems to help the frets seat flatter, but that's probably old news to most of you.

I am also a big fan of pressing frets and I do it on the board before gluing it to the neck.  After pressing, I take the board to a hard, flat surface and hammer them flush with a hard wood block maybe 3/4" x 4".  I do this because I don't think the press seats the frets perfectly in a board with a compond radius.

I've gone back and forth between wicking CA in after the fact and using titebond in the slot and using nothing.  I can't recall ever having a popped fret since I started pressing them so I don't think glue is needed to hold them in.  Some say it makes the fret better connected to the board and gives better tone but I have no opinion on that.

I then take it back to the edge sander to flush sand and bevel the ends.  I just do it carefully by hand with no jigs till I get about 1/64" bevel into the wood.  Quicker and easier than filing by hand.  I stopped triming the ends with snips because it can be hard to do it without wiggling the wire and loosening the fret ends.  I then take off the sharp corners with a flat file, polished on the edge and round and mostly finish the fret ends.  I then glue the board to the neck using a special caul on a flat surface.

I don't have to touch the tops of the frets on maybe one out of five necks.  3 of 5 need some minor leveling.  Maybe 1 in 5 needs some heavier spot leveling because of something odd with the relief which brings me to my questions....

I'm surprised nobody has talked much about relief.  To me, it's the real key to good fret work.  Having the correct amount of relief in the right place is what it's all about in my book.  Often the string tension alone takes care of it with maybe a little help from a 2-way rod.  Occasionally one of my necks (and often on repairs) I see relief that just has a bad curve.  I just did a setup on an old Larivee and the acme of the relief curve was way up under the 2nd fret.  Occasionally I'll get a neck with more relief on the treble side than the bass.  I like Rick's idea for leveling under tension under each string which is similar to how I've been dealing with it.  But I hate looking down the neck and seeing odd things even when I know the tops of the frets are right.

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

This is reposted from another thread, but I thing it probably belongs here rather than there:

[QUOTE=Kent Chasson]

Do you build in any relief or count on tension to pull in the correct amount in the correct place?

Why is it better to level the board before fretting and have the frets build in back bow (vs. pressing frets in a board and then gluing it to the neck flat)?

Do you account for different amounts of backbow induced by different densities of fretboard material? I find, using the same size slot, brazilian seems to bow less than ebony when frets are installed, presumably because it's less dense and the barbs dig in more.

What do you do if you get a neck that looks good with no tension but the strings pull the relief in the wrong spot (too close to the nut or more on the treble side than the bass)?

Should this be in a new thread?

[/QUOTE]

Kent has some excellent questions. I too am curious as to how other people are approaching these things.

As for me, I slot the fretboard, then radius, then glue it to the neck. Once it's glued to the neck and the neck is shaped I put in a little relief. To get the relief in the right spot, I try to simulate tension by locking the heel mortise in a vise and pushing on the headstock. If the bend isn't happening at the 6-7th fret (where I want the relief centered) I can take out material to compensate. Finally I fret using an arbor press and caul.

For me getting really good playability comes from adding that relief in before fretting. I started doing it this way after Ervin's class and figure I now get the low E string an extra 1/32" closer to the fretboard at the 12th fret without any buzzes using this technique compared to having a perfectly straight board before fretting.

[QUOTE=MichaelP]Every ting I have found on Classical guitars have pretty much flat FB the additional relief would be in the nut and saddle set up ie. a tad more string clearance but not much. At least this is what I have found in the literature I have. Not being an experienced Classical builder I to am interested.[/QUOTE]

Hauser Sr., in his plans call for relief in the fingerboard from somewhere in the area of the 8th or 9th fret to the end of the finger board, on the bass side, and Shawn has mentioned that he adds relief from around the 9th or 10th fret to the end of the fingerboard on the bass side to allow for the additional vibration requirements of the bass strings.  This also, apparently, allows for better overall action on the guitar.  I know, also, that Ramirez also uses the same type of relief on  his boards.  I found it difficult to adjust to the first time I played a 1A.  It feels real funny, but I'm not sure the one I was playing had a very good setup, because the action seemed very high to me.  Maybe it was a GLO.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I have a 1a, and the figerboard twists for more relief on the bass side. This is instead of raising the saddle on the bass side. Apparently, Jose Ramirez liked the idea of keeping the saddle a constant height above the top...not what we are used to with steel string guitars. Ramirez action is notably manly; that's quite normal. Those guitars are designed to punch to the back of a 2,500 seat concert hall with no amplification. They also have long scales; they're not for wimps.

Also, we press frets in on all our bolt on Renaissance necks. We hammer them in on guitars where we can't get the neck into the fret press conveniently. Hammering is not that big a deal if you learn how to do it correctly. Of course if you don't, it can be the most frustrating job in lutherie. Taylor hammered frets into hundreds of thousands of guitars before they switched to the new neck joint.

Speaking of production fretting, when I was at Fender Corona a year and a half ago, they were wasting over 20" of fret wire on each Strat neck.   The overhang at each end of the frets was incredible... I'd bet they had a 35% waste factor...

Good timing as I am about to level off my first classical. I am building to Hauser SR. 1946 plans and there is no mention of any relief. I would assume then tapering to about .008 from the 7th to the end

Michael, I'll have to look at the plans.  The ones I have are the old version, i.e., the 1937 Hauser ex Segovia version.  GAL plan #33, and the details and a small plan are in AL #31 or Big Red Book #3.   It definately mentions relief, but I can't recall how much.  I am not using them for this build, but I do have them.  The only Hauser Sr, guitar I have ever played was one a friend had, and has since sold, and I don't recall whether it had bass side relief or not, and if it did, it was subtle. 

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=Kent Chasson]

Thanks for starting this thread, Hesh.

I don't do anything out of the ordinary.  I did find that it was easier to get low action after I switched to a compound radius board.  I have  a simple jig for sanding the radius on an edge sander.[/QUOTE]

Kent - one of the things I have a hard time understanding is how a compound radius is put on a fretboard. A single radius seems straightforward (just use a radius sanding block). You said you have a jig for your edge sander - can you elaborate or post a pic? This may be one of those things that I just don't get until I see it or do it.

Thanks!!

_________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

Christian: go check out the 'shop pics' on Warmoth's website for a very over-engineerd (but oh so pretty) edge-sander jig for compound radii.

Christian,

Also, here's a thread from awhile ago. Might answer some of your questions.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Christian, here's the jig.  First, a disclaimer.  When I build a new jig, I almost always build it as a down and dirty prototype.  I leave off any bells and whistles and never put energy into making them look good.  Often the prototype works fine and I use it for years.  If not, I'm not out much time or money and I know how to build it right the next time.

This one was quick and dirty and has worked pretty well but I could recomend some improvements.

The board attaches to the jig with double sided tape (vacuum would be a nice improvement).  There are changeable guides on each end and you can make any single or compound radius by changing the guides.  They adjust for depth sliding on small rails to keep them square to the surface and lock down with an allen head bolt (I put a layer of psa sandpaper in between to really keep it from slipping).  The allen head bolt then acts as a pivot rail and fits into the slots on the stationary part of the jig.  It helps to have a few different slots so you can move the jig around on the belt and not wear it out in one spot.

Here's a detail.  The guides stop on the little rail at the back and those get adjusted as close as possible to the sandpaper and locked down with another bolt.

A helpful refinement would be a simple screw adjustment for depth but it's not to hard to adjust without it.

Hope that's clear.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com