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| Fret Board Gluing Caul (Pics) http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=12894 |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:34 am ] |
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Hesh- Neat caul. Definitely a step up from the bondo version I've used. Perhaps John should consider making a matching caul for the rounded side ('back"?) of the neck for folks that use his necks. How do you protect the neck while clamping the fingerboard, when using a pre-shaped neck? Cheers John |
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| Author: | Michael Lloyd [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:38 am ] |
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So that's what's been holding up my order. 
I'm curious, what do the locator pins look like? I’d be apprehensive about using an epoxy to glue on a FB. I wouldn’t think epoxy would have the same penetration proprieties as carpenter glue or hide glue. And what about if ever the FB needed to be removed. I’ve never been comfortable using epoxy on most things. 
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| Author: | Rick Turner [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:11 pm ] |
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Gluing is not about penetration...it's not mechanical fingers going into each piece of wood like micro-Velcro. It works by molecular attraction. Epoxy may just be the best glue you could possibly use to attach a fingerboard as you are not introducing water into that critical glue joint and thus upsetting the stress balances in the piece of wood. It's easy to get an epoxied fingerboard off the neck if need be using heat. Once I stopped using water bearing glues for fingerboards I stopped having warping, back-bowing and the other usual problems with neck construction. Another thing...carve the neck shaft as close as you can to the final shape and size before gluing on the fingerboard. That stress relieves the neck shaft and gives you one last chance to true up the gluing surface if need be before gluing on the fingerboard...with a non-water bearing glue. The exception to this is with vintage restoration where hot hide glue is the only proper choice. |
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| Author: | David R White [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:13 pm ] |
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Just between you and me - I screw up a lot - so reversability is a big factor. I am using West System epoxy for gluing fingerboards, and it is very very easy to reverse. The "locator pins" I use are the smallest finishing nails you can buy, put a couple in through the fret slots and the holes will get covered when you install the frets. |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:06 pm ] |
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Which West are you going to use???? 205 fast or 206 slow? |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:05 pm ] |
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Agreed on the reversability of epoxy. It seems to be a common misconception that it is somehow permanent but in my experience, it is way easier to get apart than aliphatic. In fact, that is one reason that some folks don't like it. Some think it softens too easily with heat, as in a hot car. |
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:20 pm ] |
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I'll use epoxy next time. Great caul, Hesh! |
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| Author: | Rick Turner [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:45 pm ] |
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Not all epoxies are created equal, and there are formulas that can take serious heat such as some of those used in aerospace applications. One of the epoxies commonly used with carbon fiber laminates has a cure temperature of 350 F. and can handle temperatures above that when cured. We use the Smith and Co. all wood epoxy, and it seems good up to about 145 to 155 F. That's right in the range of PVA glues...maybe slightly higher. The polyurethane glues, on the other hand, need a good 180 F. to let go...they're tough, but not as reliable as a fingerboard glue in our experience. |
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| Author: | Don A [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:03 pm ] |
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It appears that Smith and Co. upgraded their "All Wood Glue" to "Oak and Teak Epoxy Glue" in 2004. For those who looking for it, here is the link. Oak and Teak Expoxy Glue |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:43 pm ] |
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Thanks Don, LMI has it also Smith All Wood Epoxy FGSMI All wood epoxy, 12 oz In Stock $23.75 Smith All Wood Epoxy Rick Turner gave us the lead to this Steve Smith epoxy. He uses it for gluing his fingerboards to the neck shaft to avoid introducing water into the fingerboard, which in turn can introduce back bow into the neck. This epoxy has many advantages, the most salient of which are: (1) Designed specifically for oily woods, actually incorporates resins and oils into the epoxy. (2) 1 to 1 mix ratio by volume, and is forgiving of minor mix disparities. (3) 2-hour pot life at 70°F, full cure in 24 hrs.; (4) Workable and curable below freezing (28°F, 8 days cure); (5) Extremely tough. Great for gluing particularly resinous woods such as Cocobolo and some of the ebonies. 
Im going to give this a try! |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:43 pm ] |
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Hesh, great looking Logo and a cool clamping cull! John has great ideas! |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:15 am ] |
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[QUOTE=LanceK] Thanks Don, LMI has it also Smith All Wood Epoxy FGSMI All wood epoxy, 12 oz In Stock $23.75 Smith All Wood Epoxy Rick Turner gave us the lead to this Steve Smith epoxy. He uses it for gluing his fingerboards to the neck shaft to avoid introducing water into the fingerboard, which in turn can introduce back bow into the neck. This epoxy has many advantages, the most salient of which are: (1) Designed specifically for oily woods, actually incorporates resins and oils into the epoxy. (2) 1 to 1 mix ratio by volume, and is forgiving of minor mix disparities. (3) 2-hour pot life at 70°F, full cure in 24 hrs.; (4) Workable and curable below freezing (28°F, 8 days cure); (5) Extremely tough. Great for gluing particularly resinous woods such as Cocobolo and some of the ebonies.
Im going to give this a try![/QUOTE] Does anyone know, what is the shelf life of this stuff? I have some I bought a while back. |
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| Author: | David R White [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:38 am ] |
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[QUOTE=azimmer1] Which West are you going to use???? 205 fast or 206 slow? [/QUOTE] I use the 207, because it is the clearest and I also use this to pore fill. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:04 am ] |
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Shelf life can vary. I believe it is good as long as it hasn't gone bad, and you can tell this because it will turn dark or hard. This usually occurs with the hardener before the resin. |
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| Author: | Chris Oliver [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:17 am ] |
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Brock, If using System III epoxies, they don't go bad. I purchased over a gallon of resin and several quarts of each of the three speeds of hardeners from a local guy leaving the woodworking business. I contacted System III about the lifespan and they said the product is still good even if it seems to have crystalized. They recommended warming it up to re-dissolve. I have done so and it works. I don't know about the other brands, but I would bet they are similar in properties. chris |
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| Author: | Don A [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:42 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Chris Oliver] Brock,If using System III epoxies, they don't go bad. I purchased over a gallon of resin and several quarts of each of the three speeds of hardeners from a local guy leaving the woodworking business. I contacted System III about the lifespan and they said the product is still good even if it seems to have crystalized. They recommended warming it up to re-dissolve. I have done so and it works. I don't know about the other brands, but I would bet they are similar in properties.chris [/QUOTE] Thanks for the info Chis. I bought one of their general sample packs awhile back and haven't gotten around to using it. Its nice to know I don't have to pitch it out. Todd, any specific reason for using the T-88 vs STR for finger board gluing and/or pore filling. I had originally planned to use the STR for pore filling but it would be nice to be able to keep only one formulation on hand for dual use. |
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| Author: | Burton LeGeyt [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:16 am ] |
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I just got some of the Smith's all wood glue to test out and used it to laminate some double sides. It worked great, I am definitely going to try it on the next fingerboard glue-up. Also, pre shaping the neck to relieve stress before gluing on the fingerboard makes so much sense, I never thought of it like that but now... I am going to do that too. For those of us that pre-fret before gluing on the fingerboard does anyone have any ideas for alignment jigs? Besides just leaving out one fret. |
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| Author: | Rick Turner [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:30 am ] |
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Make a drill jig that you can use to spot two shallow holes in the fingerboard and then in the neck. Use plastic dowels. The drill jig can be used one side up to do the neck and upside down to do the fingerboard. The holes will match up perfectly. OR..my favorite old trick...shoot a couple of staples into the neck/fingerboard gluing surface and cut off the crowns with a pair of end nippers leaving just a bit of the sharp points. Then when you glue the fingerboard, the points will dig into the underside of the fingerboard and prevent it from slipping around. |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:46 am ] |
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Hesh: A friend of mine who uses West for lots of things, prefers the 205, but the truth is the major difference is the curing time. 205 is a few hours, give or take, and 206 is the 24 hours, approximately. Working time isn't an issue with these adhesives, as long as the spread is kept relatively thin. I've used both, most recently the 206 for my pore fill, and it was touchable in about 4 hours, cured hard the following afternoon. I "think" I remember someone saying the 205 has a little more of an amber tint to it, but I might be wrong. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:01 am ] |
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For those that shape the neck after the fingerboard is glued on, you can just glue (a drop of CA) some small wood locating blocks (binding scraps or smaller) to the neck blank, since there's usually 1/8" or so of excess neck showing. I used to use pins through the fret slots (works well) but the wood blocks are less trouble and I don't have to work the caul around them or worry about removing them (if you forget to pull them once things are stabilized with the clamps) . Lots of ways work for this. The 'dowels under the fingerboard' seems to be the way Martin is doing it, since some Martin fingerboards I've got have the divots drilled in the underside of the board. Something to keep in mind if you are taking off a fingerboard and the palette knife comes to a sudden stop! Cheers John |
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| Author: | Rick Turner [ Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:39 am ] |
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Having participated in the making...well actually I did all the rough shaping...of about 1,250 Alembic necks where we put the fingerboard on and then shaped, I can tell you that you'll have a much more stable neck if you rough carve first, allow the neck to relax and stabilize, and then do one last check on the straightness of the fingerboard gluing plane, correct if needed, and then glue on the fingerboard with a non water-bearing glue. When I stopped shaping blanks with the fingerboard in place my neck problems dropped by an order of magnitude. Whenever you plane or shape a piece of wood and remove more material from one side than the other, you get stress release and wood movement. This applies whether you are resawing blocks into tops, backs, and sides or you're making necks. If you rough shape your neck parts, let the wood sit a while, and then correct and glue and final shape, you'll have a lot fewer problems down the line and you'll have happier customers...If you care about such folks... |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:26 am ] |
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Rick makes some good points. I'm not sure I have the skill to shape a neck without having the fingerboard in place. Experience counts. I should have added that I also flatten the fingerboard and install frets after the neck is shaped, sanded, finished, and attached to the guitar. I also use laminated necks, though they may well show as many stress-related problems as traditional necks. BTW, the polyurethane glues need moisture to cure, so they may be pulling enough moisture out of the neck to cause problems as well. Epoxy (as suggested by Rick T and others) is the way to avoid any moisture problems. John |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:24 am ] |
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Taylor puts blanks through the rotoshaper (rough shapes them), then glues on the fretboards, then machines them to final profile under tension (truss rod active). Not sure how this fits into the mix, but I figure it was worth bringing up since they put out over 1200 guitars a week. |
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