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Minor repair help needed
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13112		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:03 pm ]
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Hey folks, I need a bit of help/confirmation of what I think (I hold that loosely) I know.

A friend of mine has a Guild Dreadnought which has some of the binding pulling off. The binding is plastic (ABS I suspect) and I was just going to use some medium viscosity CA and tape it down. Or should I tape it, than wick in thin CA (this is how I do my wood bindings on my guitars).

I've never worked with ABS/plastic bindings before so I don't know what the best glue to use is.

Any help would be great.

Here are a couple of pictures of the problem.



Author:  Rick Turner [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:08 pm ]
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The real issue is the finish.   If it's polyester, then you could use superglue and clean off any excess with superglue solvent. If it's nitro, then you might want to consider using a good white glue like the LMI stuff. The white glue won't bite into the binding really well, but if the binding hasn't shrunk too much, it will hold and you can clean the excess off easily with a paper towel and hot water or De Glue Goo.
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:20 pm ]
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I guess that's the tricky part with a factory guitar hey? What is the finish on it. What can I do to figure out what type of finish is on it?

I looked up the guitar on the Guild web site. It was manufactured in 1997 at the Westerly RI factory.

Model: DCE1
Serial # AD113773
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:20 pm ]
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Cool thanks Hesh
Author:  Doug O [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:22 pm ]
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Must be a common problem.  I have a 1990 +/-  Guild dred and the plastic heel cap fell off 8 or 10 years ago and now the bindging is falling off.
Author:  Dean [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:27 pm ]
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Whoa guys! Titebond makes a glue specifically for plastic and melamines to adhere to other substrates. Also, another brand called Roo glue works just as well. Water based and compatible with any finish and very easy cleanup. Extremely close to properties of lmi white.

Dean
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:38 pm ]
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Reading through the other threads Kirk started about 2-4 weeks back, the guitar in my hands is nearly the same as his.

This is not a high end guitar by any means. It's very very heavy, plastic nut, saddle and bridge pins and it already looks like it needs a neck reset (not worth it I'm sure). The saddle is very very low (3/32" above the bridge at the most) and the action is still a bit high.

I guess I'll get me some of that Roo glue (where do you get it Dean) and give it a go.
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:02 pm ]
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Thanks again Hesh, your well traveled Bud. Guild guitars and mom and pop hardware stores

I think your guild may have been built in the Westerly shop too.

Your right on with the date too (seeing as you bought it new, you should be )

This is from the guild web site

Year   Start Ser. # - End Ser. #

1977     149626 --------   169867

Author:  David Collins [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:16 pm ]
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Roo Glue is often found at supply stores for cabinet makers. I Believe it is
a polyvinyl alcohol, as opposed to polyvinyl acetate that we
normally refer to as PVA. It's made specifically for bonding porous to non
porous surfaces. Short to moderate working time, no interaction with
finishes, cleans up with water when wet, or alcohol when dry. I buy it at a
cabinetmakers supply house about 30 miles from my shop, but I'm sure it
can be found online. I started using it for bindings years ago by
recommendation of Steve at Collings if my memory serves me correctly.

The down side is that it is not friendly to contaminated surfaces. If the
surface of the binding slot is filled with a previous glue, you could be
trying to essentially bond two non-porous surfaces, for which it does not
work terribly well in my experience. You could try to scrape it clean, but
that runs a bigger risk of cosmetic problems (finish chipping) than I think
CA glues likely would. Collagen glues like hide, rabbit and fish can be
excellent for porous to non-porous as well (fish glue is commonly used
for metals or glass to wood) but they again need at least one porous
surface.

Joining two non-porous surfaces leaves you pretty much with CA glues
or epoxies. If it were a synthetic gloss finish I would likely use a CA, as
even if it did stick it would be easy to sand and buff out (Nitro you have
to be much more selective using CA because will really eat in to it). With
the satin finish it looks like you have however, it can be tougher to clean
up and keep it looking satin.

So I say, if the binding has wood fibers stuck to it I would probably use a
natural collagen glue. If it's clean and the wood slot looks smooth and
plastic-like then I might try to carefully clean it up with some stiff 180
sandpaper (being careful not to roll the edges) and use a polyvinyl
alcohol. If you decide to use CA you can minimize finish damage to a
point by waxing the surfaces around the glue joint, being very careful not
to get any in the joint itself. You could also try a water based liquid
masking paint to protect from CA. 3M makes some that will peel of any
finish I've ever seen, but I would be concerned about lower viscosity CA's
wicking in underneath it.
Author:  David Collins [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:27 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Rod I found Roo Glue at a local mom and pop
hardware store so I think it is not hard to find. Might even find it at the
big box stores.[/QUOTE]

Not to hijack, but did you find it at Stadium Hardware? Last time I bought
any was about five years ago and the closest place I could find was in
Livonia.

Between this week and last I've had to replace a crumbled heelcap on a
Guild neck reset, repair loose/missing binding on a different Guild refret,
and reglue binding at the waist of another Guild, but these were all 60's/
70's. Not that this only happens to Guilds, but by some weird cosmic
thingy it seems like I've had more Guilds in over the last few weeks than I
normally see in a year.
Author:  KenH [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:37 pm ]
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I have a Martin D-35 with the white binding on it. Almost all of the binding came loose within a few weeks (neck binding, top and back binding)..


I called Martin and they said it would be covered under warranty and that it was a common problem. I didnt want to ship my guitar and chance having it further damaged by a freight carrier and kept putting it off.


When I went through the flat top luthier school with Frank Finnocchio (also a Martin Factory Repair center) he suggested the plain old white Elmer's glue and then to tape it in place with blue tape as though I was installing binding on a new guitar. That is exactly what I did and it worked like a dream. I cleaned up the squeeze out while I was installing it and the little that was left wiped right off after the tape was removed the next day. I would definitely reccomend this repair method to you as well. In my repair you cant even feel a line where the re-glue was made.


By the way, after doing some research I did find that it is a fault of the plastic binding (in this case the binding is PVC) and it shrinks over time creating stress on the glue joint. I no longer use plastic bindings unless a customer specifically requests it.
Author:  David Collins [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:00 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars] I called Martin and they said it would be covered
under warranty and that it was a common problem. I didnt want to ship my
guitar and chance having it further damaged by a freight carrier and kept
putting it off.[/QUOTE]

Martin is typically quite good about covering binding failures, and Guild
used too be as well. After Fender bought Guild this issue suddenly started
getting blamed on things like "environmental conditions" and lack of care.
Go figure that one out. At least they've still got a better warranty than
Rickenbacker . Still, I wouldn't count on warranty from them on this one.

That said, I should disclose that although I used to do warranty for about all
major manufacturers, I'm now very happily a warranty center for no one.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:19 pm ]
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Boy, you guys should read what high esteem these overbuilt Westerly Guilds are held in over in other forums. There's a weird mystique about them that has everything to do with their being "pre-Fender" and little to do with being really fine guitars.   

OK, there goes Rick again!

Anyway, lacquer...

Stay away from it with superglue unless you're well experienced with the combo of nitro and superglue. And I guess there's only one way to get experienced and that's to do some repair and then say, "Oh, F..k!
Author:  KenH [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:25 pm ]
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I knew I had found a tutorial on binding repairs somewhere on the net, and I found it again. It is over at Frank Ford's site (frets.com)


THANKS Frank!!
Author:  Rick Turner [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:41 pm ]
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Frank is about as "real world" as you can get...
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:06 pm ]
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Thanks for all the great help guys.

So Rick, the finish is lacquer? I'm going to stay away from the CA, try the Roo glue and see how it turns out.

It really is amazing that some of these factory guitars get such high praise. I'm amazed personally. You have to lift weights just to hold this up for a long gig.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:15 pm ]
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I have also glued down Guild bindings (with CA) that were lifting at the waist, the problem seems very common. As has been mentioned, the big problem is if the binding has shrunk too much to fit and the glue line will be large. I have not done this procedure myself, but I have seen recommendations to wipe plastic bindings with acetone immediately before gluing with Titebond, it supposedly makes it easier for the glue to adhere to the plastic. I don't know if this is practical in this situation though.
Author:  Evan Gluck [ Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:40 pm ]
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Funny David, Guilds tend to come in waves in my shop, from none for a month or so to 6 in a row in a week. I keep records and it is a weird coincidence that happens at least twice a year. Some kind of secret elephant burial ground or something.
Best, Evan
Rod, does the binding lay flush to the sides when you put gentle pressure on it or do you really have to push it in with a bit of force to get it in place?
Author:  MarkW [ Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:52 am ]
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I had two Guilds in the shop last week for binding repair. Guild neck resets are really fun too.
Author:  Kirt Myers [ Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Man, that looks real familiar.

I had good luck with the LMI FCA glue. You have to try not to have any squeeze out. Where I did, it was tough getting cleaned up without messing up the finish. I ended up having to touchup a couple places.

The owner has it back now, so I can't show any pictures. The binding shunk and pulled up at the waist, so I pulled the rest of it loose up to the heel and reglued the whole thing. Tiny gap at the heel now.    

I also replaced the heel cap that fell off and was lost. I reglued the bridge, which was pulling loose with hide glue and replaced the plastic saddle with bone. The plastic saddle was about .020" to thin for the slot so it was leaning about 30 degrees.

I also touched up the frets and brought the action down a little at the nut. He's real happy with it now. Course I only charged him $20. The sound is much better with the new saddle though.

Good luck.
Kirt


Author:  David Collins [ Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:37 am ]
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[QUOTE=Kirt]I also touched up the frets and brought the action down a
little at the nut. He's real happy with it now. Course I only charged him
$20. The sound is much better with the new saddle though.[/QUOTE]

So you paid the owner for the privilege of working on their guitar.... I
need to find someone who will do drywall for me at those rates.

If the binding is actually shrunken (which doesn't appear to be the case in
your photos) it can be re-stretched, but it's a rather delicate procedure.
There is about a 3 degree Celsius gap between the point binding starts to
soften and when nitro lacquer starts to darken and bubble. I have it
written down on my heat gun, but if I remember right the working range
is 81-84. Higher than 83 gets risky. A good variable temp heat gun like a
Makita can hold this temperature fairly accurately, so long as you
maintain a steady distance with an appropriate nozzle. Then if the
binding is heated even slightly unevenly it will not stretch smoothly, and
you'll end up with distinct thin spots.

It's a tricky process that takes some practice on scrap guitars, but comes
in very handy on occasion. For many cases, splicing in a new piece can
give better results after extensive touchup. For a slight shrinkage at a
waist or cutaway, or trying to stretch Guild or Gibson fretboard binding so
that the nibs match back up with the fret ends, it can be a very handy
technique.
Author:  Kirt Myers [ Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:42 am ]
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Yeah, I paid him to use his guitar as a guinee pig.

BTW, I hate drywall.
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