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| Board and Fret leveling/radiusing http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13167 |
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| Author: | Matthew Bryan [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:46 am ] |
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Hello all, I have watched the Dan Earliewine DVD's on fretting quite a few times and have a question. His proceudre uses the metal Stewmac surface ground beams that are flat with sand paper stuck to them to level both the fret board and the frets. After leveling the fret board he uses a wooden or plastic radiused caul to ensure the radius of the board is consistant. He does this also after leveling the frets. With all the trouble of using the extreamly flat tool to level why would use a radiused caul that could change that level? I know you can use the metal, flat, radiused beam that Stewmac sells and kill two birds with one stone but I do not have that. I guess he goes through the trouble of making sure the wooden radiused cauls are dead flat as well and there is no question. I was going to use my level which I checked with a flat surface for both the fretboard and frets to level them. While doing so use either a circular motion or level by pulling the thing back and fourth in the direction of the frets (not the strings) to keep the radius hole. Does this sound like a sane thing to do? Am I overdoing this and should just stick with the back and fourth motion in the direction of the strings because there should not be much to take off anyway so the radius change is minimal? Thanks for the advice |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:31 am ] |
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I am a model RC builder and have the Greatplanes T-bar sanding plane. It is pretty light gauge and meant for sanding balsa and light ply on model airplanes. Being as light weight as it is deflection could be an issue. The Stewmac precision ground aluminum radius sanding block (18") is perfect to sand fretboard radius level. very heavy and will not deflect. This was not yet available when Dan Earliewine filmed his video or I am sure he would have used it. I use to use a #7 plane iron like Frank Ford on fretboards. However not on the frets. You first must find the high frets and fix them because if you try to use a long plane of any kind and have high frets the difference in height will throw the plane low at one end and high at the other. So in essence using a long planed tool of any kind on the frets them self is not the way to go and will lead you into problems trying to do so. |
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:41 am ] |
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I just used my Stewmac beam for the first time a couple weeks ago. I was very pleased with how it turned out. After I got the frets in, I used one of their 8" long machined tubes to level the frets. The sharpie marks disappeared very quickly, not much leveling necessary at all. My only complaint on the radius beam is that they need to get a new shape that has a little riglet in the sides so they can press in some sort of rubber grip on each side. I had to wear rubber gloves so I could grip the thing while sanding. (I want a free set of radius beams if Stewmac uses my idea. :) ) |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:22 am ] |
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Here is why I say leveling with a long planed surface, (be it radiused or flat) will not work efficiently. it can be done with the sharpie technique as mentioned above but you end up lower frets that did not need to be lowered to get to a level plane, and thereby causing much more dressing work. Using a fret rocker to find and fix high frets is the best in my books. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:54 am ] |
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Michael, Your diagram does not explain to me why a long plane does not work efficiently when leveling frets. My experience also differs from yours. I have been using an 18" long carpenters level for 30 years to level frets. It has worked for me. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:03 am ] |
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This is none of my beeswax, but I think Michael's point was not that it wouldn't work with a long leveling file/bar, but why sand the tops off of perfectly level frets and have to dress them out when there is only one or two high ones, that, if dealt with individually, could be handled much quicker, and not lose important fret height on the other frets. IOW, why wear them out with a file, and shorten the time before refretting is required. Though he is a gentleman and probably wouldn't say that. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:10 am ] |
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 That last post sounds offensive, and I was only trying to make a point, which wasn't mine to start with, not be critical of someone else's methods. Sorry if I was rude.  |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:14 am ] |
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Ok lets put it this way. When you a flat plane on the fret to sand with it, is it touching more frets than the highest fret. The answer is yes. When a plane lays across the frets it must lie tangent to at least 2 frets. If you have more than one fret high it will lie across the two highest. If you have only one high it will lie across the high one and the nearest tangent possibility. In this case you end up taking of material from frets that did not need material removed from them. Keep in mind I use to do the same thing you are doing and you will reach a equilibrium that all frets are level. However they will be lower than they needed to be unless you have a way to hold the level so that it only touches the high fret or frets. I doubt any-ones dexterity is good enough to hold a 18" level tangent to only the one fret. now keep in mind here; I am not talking about taking a bunch off the already level frets. The high one will get most of the abrasion. However you will be sanding on at least one other fret that does not need it. Your method, my old method were the same and in the end we had level frets. But none the less we sanded down frets that did not need sanding. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:16 am ] |
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I never said that your method did not work I said it was not the most efficient method and in being efficient I mean removing no more material from the frets than need be to achieve level. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:18 am ] |
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Dead on Waddy you got it post while I was typing |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:20 am ] |
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I think there can be a good common ground here. I use a long plane along with the rocker technique. The reason I went back to the rocker is that I once had a springy fret. When I would draw a sharpie line on all of the frets, sand with the long bar, they would all remove the sharpie line equally. One would assume they were flat. Then the rocker would show a high fret. What was happening is the springy fret was pushing down when the long bar passed over it and then springing up after it passed. To the original post: if you start with a radiused fingerboard, you can level it with a long flat bar. You likely won't take much of the radius out of it but maybe a bit. So you can use your radius block and take long gentle passes to get the radius back. If you take passes the length of the fingerboard, you won't mess up the flatness. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:49 am ] |
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Sanding individual frets sounds like an inefficient process to me. But more power to you if it works for you. More than one way to skin a cat for sure. |
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| Author: | GregG [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:40 am ] |
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I've done it both ways as well, I happen to agree with Michael, but either way will work. Greg |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:01 am ] |
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The majority of my experience is with electric guitar repairs and my clients usually want a really low action. I think the only way to get the frets "really" level is with a long sanding beam. Chasing down single frets seems counterproductive. I think Michael's explanation (though reasonable sounding) doesn't really prove to be a problem in practice. A new fretboard with a few frets that are no more than a couple of thousandths of an inch high get quickly leveled to the general plane of the other frets. An old fretboard with really high frets and maybe an enormous hump at the 14th fret is another issue, and it may require some spot treatment. But this should be followed up with a long sanding beam until it kisses all the frets. |
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| Author: | MarkW [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:36 am ] |
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There are merits within all the techniques described here and as a repairman I use several. I think what Michael was saying is that in the case of frets that are significantly higher, it is better to deal with those either individually or with a very short level or plane and then proceed to your longer sanding beam. You can't level a high spot with a long beam without also sanding additional frets in the process because a beam has to rest on at least two points. Like Hesh, I start with a level board and then I press my frets in. I then read the frets tops with a straight edge to look for high or inproperly seated frets prior to leveling. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:58 am ] |
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[QUOTE=MarkW] There are merits within all the techniques described here and as a repairman I use several. I think what Michael was saying is that in the case of frets that are significantly higher, it is better to deal with those either individually or with a very short level or plane and then proceed to your longer sanding beam. You can't level a high spot with a long beam without also sanding additional frets in the process because a beam has to rest on at least two points. Like Hesh, I start with a level board and then I press my frets in. I then read the frets tops with a straight edge to look for high or inproperly seated frets prior to leveling. [/QUOTE] Mark you mostly right in what I was saying. I would Both process will work. However I have found that 90% of the time i only have one to three frets that are out of level an a typical build (pre-setup). So I fix and dress them and move on. That said Rick Tuners angle process for fine tuning under tension has some appeal to me as I have a client that likes his necks with out adding relief via the truss rod. So using a flat plane (piece of flattened aluminum angle to chase down spots while under tension seems like a great idea. keep in mind here we are talking fine tuning the frets as they have already been leveled with the neck in the flat and free of tension other than the truss rod snugged. Also we are talking using short and medium length planes. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:02 am ] |
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I want my edit button 
Mark you mostly right in what I was saying. Both process will work. However I have found that 90% of the time I only have one to three frets that are out of level on a typical build (pre-setup). So I fix and dress them and move on. That said Rick Tuners angle process for fine tuning under tension has some appeal to me as I have a client that likes his necks with out adding relief via the truss rod. So using a flat plane (piece of flattened aluminum angle) to chase down specific spots while under tension seems like a great idea. Keep in mind here we are talking fine tuning the frets as they have already been leveled with the neck in the flat and free of tension other than the truss rod snugged. Also we are talking using short and medium length planes. |
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