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| Hand Plane or Electric Sanders? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13169 |
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| Author: | Andy C [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:06 am ] |
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Hi everybody, First of all I would like to give my congratulations on the stunning guitars that you all build. It is encouraging but also upsetting for me as I don't know if I will ever be able to build such special guitars. Anyway, my question is related to the tools you use to plane to thickness, whether hand planes or electric sanders. Any suggestions? Thanks |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:08 am ] |
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Tops: handplane. A number 5 or 5 1/2, well tuned, in a joy to use on fine, quartered spruce with no run-out. Backs and sides: sand. Until now, I've had them thickness sanded for me, and done final side thicknessing with a cabinet scraper. I'll be building myself a thickness sander soon, though... |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:10 am ] |
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if by electric sanders you mean hand held belt sanders, then i nor anyone i know uses them to thickness. when i was starting out i used handplanes, but these days stick to my shopbuilt thickness sander. |
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:54 am ] |
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Building guitars is a hobby for me...so the theraputic process of finely tuned handplanes for me!!! |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:59 am ] |
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In order of personal preference: 1: Wide belt sander 2: Thickness Sander 3: Planes |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:15 pm ] |
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Andy - If you have a drill press, also consider the Wagner Safe-T-Planer and a sanding disk. The Safe-T-Planer is much better for getting hardwoods close to final thickness. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:44 am ] |
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If this is going to be an on going invocation or serious hobby. get a drum sander aka thickness sander. The start at $400 and go up depending on hp and width. If you don't want to spend the money use a #5 with a serrated blade as William Cumpiano described in "Tradition and Technology". I don't believe you could use a power finish or ROS sander to achieve a a consistent thickness. Power planers will just tear up a top |
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| Author: | Andy C [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:39 am ] |
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It is going to be a hobby for me and I would like to use hand planes to thickness the soundboard but I don't know what brand to go for. I am thinking of buying a record No 4 plane or a Stanley. I have heard that Veritas and Lie-Nielsen are better quality, my budget is limited though. Is No 4 or No 5 that I need? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:00 am ] |
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best without a doubt Lie-Nielson. ready to go straight out of the box $Value based Veritas. but will need minor tuning on the sole plate and the blade will need a final sharpening either a #4 or #5 will work. I recommend you get a serrated blade for thicknessing tops and backs. It makes it easier to see where you have been work at 45 degree angles in one direct the the next session work 45 degrees the opposite direction. |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:12 am ] |
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The prep on the Lie Nielsen planes is slightly better out of the box, but you'll pay a lot more than it's worth for that. Given five minutes to touch up the stock blade, I'd put my money into the Veritas bevel-up smoother. It's a superior design for a plane. I'm an advocate of just buying the right tool instead of making the wrong one work, but if you've got a lot more time than money you can also get an old Stanley #4 or 5 and work it back into health. |
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| Author: | zac_in_ak [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:39 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Bob Garrish] but if you've got a lot more time than money you can also get an old Stanley #4 or 5 and work it back into health.[/QUOTE] or you can find a great guy who happens to like hand tools and the desire to restore planes and buy it from them... 
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:00 am ] |
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[QUOTE=zac_in_ak] or you can find a great guy who happens to like hand tools and the desire to restore planes and buy it from them... [/QUOTE]
Option C presents itself |
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| Author: | Andy C [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:13 am ] |
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I am more inclined to buy a Record plane No 4 and a Record 60 1/2 block plane rather than Stanley. Is Record better than Stanley or they are more or less the same in terms of quality? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:30 am ] |
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Well since the original Record company is no more and the rights to the name were bought by (dang it I forget who and Alzheimer moment  ) I really don't know how to answer that. but I think Modern Stanley and Record are pretty equal
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:21 am ] |
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Stanley is good until, say, the 50's. Preferably before the world wars. Record is good until the 70's or so. |
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| Author: | Miketobey [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:13 am ] |
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LV Bevel Up Smoother has raised bosses on the sides- can't shoot with it for jointing. I would go with the LV low angle bevel up Jack with a toothed blade and a second blade ground at 45*. Mine is LN, but they are both very fine quality. Buying a very good plane as a first is a good way to go- then you know how a good one feels and results to expect. You must be a journeyman sharpener to get the best as well.mt |
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| Author: | Miketobey [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:15 am ] |
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Zac's mostly fettled vintage # 5 should be finished for shipping Monday.mt |
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| Author: | Miketobey [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:30 am ] |
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The finest basic but precision out of the box block plane is the Lie-Nielsen 102. Were I to do a luthier plane must have list it would be- The above mentioned block plane, or the LV block plane, low angle, with accessory tote and larger front knob. The LV Low Angle and Standard angle block planes are bulkier than the LN 102 but you have adjstable mouth and setscrews on the sides that maintain blade alignment A Number 5 size, fettled( tuned and squared up) older Stanley. The #5 would become, at luthier scale, your shooting plane.It can also thickness and smooth. I consider it a bit long for smoothing typical size backs and tops. The LV Block, with a second blade with steeper bevel and the accssory handles can pretty well fill the #3 purpose Stanley size. But, a fettled Stanley Bailey #3 is probably perfectly suited to skilled smoothing which involves identifying high spots and thinning only that area, blending with the rest of the surface. That is all the bigger plane one needs to thickness tops and backs. One specialty plane I would highly recommend to a luthier is the Lee Valley Veritas Scraper plane. Properly set up it will provide a finish ready surface on backs, unbent sides and even spruce tops with a bit of tweaking. I recommend the LV over the beautiful LN or original Stanley 112, because the Veritas can put a gentle bow into the scraper blade; this often helps avoiding "leaning on" the tool too heavily to get those smoothing curlies. I mentioned Bailey. A Bailey style Stanley Plane is ubiquitous. The premier series of Stanleys is the Bedrock. Bedrocks all have a larger seating surface for the blade, making for less risk of chatter. A "flatside" Bedrock allows adjustment of the mouth opening without removing the frog, blade and capiron and levercap. Lie-Nielsens are flatside Bedrocks. Some consider this of no great advantage; I believe that it is invaluable when planing exotics. For routine hardwoods the adjustment is usually not altered. But in some of the figured woods with squirrely grain patterns it can take several adjustment combinations to minimize or prevent tear-out. Most Bedrocks attract collectors. While I have a few, I use them, and every one has either Hock or Lie-Nielsen steel. This is better steel than the original steel and thicker- again to prevent chatter. If a Bedrock is for sale, and it looks as though it may reach 1/2 the price of a Lie-Nielsen, bail out, save up, and go LN. Lee Valley planes in the same categories have some new and valuable modern improvements- in all of the above one could insert LV for LN and save some cash and still have a vast improvement on the run of the mill Stanley. And, by the way, unless you have 20+ year vintage documented, Record planes have the same diminution of quality as finally beset the Stanleys. Just my thoughts.mt |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:06 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Miketobey][/QUOTE] Paragraphs? |
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| Author: | livemo1 [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:29 am ] |
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I found a GREAT method recently that saves money AND time. First, I troll the local antique shops for old chisels, spokeshaves and planes. next, the tops are done by hand with a 5 1/2 Keen Kutter and a smaller bench plane with the serrated blade. Finally backs and sides... $25 and a half hour at a local molding and cabinet shop got the back and two sets of sides down to a consistent .095. I would recommend having them stop a little over .100 and finish the rest by hand as there was some tear out at the edges, but I couldn't be happier with the results. As much fun as it was to plan the top, it was equally NOT fun to do rosewood. I'll not do that again if I don't have to. This is just an idea |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:54 am ] |
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Wide belt and drum sanders are certainly great for bringing the thickness down close to final. For final thickness and finished surface though, it's hard to beat a good scraper plane like the Stanley 112 style. As Mike mentioned, Veritas and Lee Valley make better versions of this, but the styles are generally modeled after the Stanley 112. |
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| Author: | Miketobey [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:59 am ] |
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Sorry- I hit the enter and tab to indent- the word processing on this computer is not helping me. On another note, I did not know that Lance and Brock had sworn in a style Sheriff. If my post irritates your grammatical sensibilities or, your eyes, pass it up and don't read it. If I started correcting the spelling of many fine luthiers on this forum, many would have their feelings hurt, to no benefit of anyone, and I wouldn't think too much of myself. So, back off buster! J.E. Mike Tobey |
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| Author: | zac_in_ak [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:19 pm ] |
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Boy if there are grammar police I am in trouble... 
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:26 pm ] |
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You are under arrest! Consider yourself on probation.  
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