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Bridge material selection
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13251		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:54 am ]
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I realize I'm probably over-thinking this slightly, but here's the thing:

I'm building a jumbo. 16.6" across the lower bout, outline and bracing pattern are over in that thread I started asking for feedback about my bracing design. In summary: WRC top, Adi bracing (thin/tall, CF reinforcement to prevent too much warping over time), fairly standard X bracing. Tone: strummy/fingerstyle-y mix, balanced.

Issue: bridge wood selection. Now, ordinarily, I'd got for rosewood. Probably Madagascan, these days, since I have quite a lot of it. However, the inlay planned and general appointments mean I need the bridge black, so up comes ebony. Which has that spot of higher damping going on, and I want to make sure I don't kill all the high end in what I think is - overall - a fairly bass-biased design (wide-ish X, WRC, big body).

The issue: I have plenty of (African/black, not macassar) ebony blanks, but...should I use them? Asking for trouble? Should I just make sure I'm shooting for the 'right' weight (28-35 grams) and not worry about the damping characteristics too much? Should I take a darker madagascan bridge and darken it further (do those things have tannins? ie, vinegar/steel wool solution to ebonize it?). The madagscan I have is fairly light, overall. Have one very dark piece of indian, but it's not quite the jet-black of the fingerboard and headplate, and since all three of those parts will have inlay, I'd prefer it if it all matched.

In short: your thoughts?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:28 am ]
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Mattia,

My personal favorite fingerstyle guitar from my personal stable is a IRW/Koa toped with ebony bridge. At first I had Ebony Bridge pins in it. It was a bit shy on the high end but when I switched to bone pins the trebel came alive. keep the base side bracing beefy and I think you will be fine
Author:  Dave White [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:42 am ]
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Mattia,

If you want a black rosewood bridge the maybe African blackwood is the way to go. I've used Macassar ebony a lot for bridges and it works very well but is not jet black.
Author:  KenH [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:50 am ]
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If you want a really dark bridge that is super dense, I've got one for you that is WAYYYY out in left field...


How about some IPE (Brazilian walnut) ?? I have bought some of this (enough to make about 20 fingerboards and bridges) and I am really impressed at how dense this stuff is. It is very dark in color as well, but not jet black like ebony. It is more of a dark gray with a little brown thrown in. This stuff is closer to steel than wood in density. There is no way anybody could possibly ever wear out a fingerboard made out of it. I understand that the brooklyn bridge is decked with it and it has been exposed to the elements for over 50 years with no signs of wear.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:25 am ]
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I would try African blackwood. Glue it with HHG and if it doesnt work (it will though) remove and put ebony.

The problem is that bridge blanks do not appear in any of the shops I know.  I would guess it would be a good ideea to email Hibdon hardwood. They sell B&S sets and they might have a piece good enough for a bridge... 

West Penn does sell all sort of small planks, some would yield 2 to 4 blanks, but I dont know how the grain runs in them.

Author:  David R White [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:02 pm ]
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Mattia, are you convinced it should be jet black? I've built with ebony headplate and bindings, then a bridge with black streaks - such as BRW or Ziricote.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:50 pm ]
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Food for thought....

I'm pretty sure it should be jet black or close to, and I hadn't really considered blackwood. Will check out my local hardwood shoppe, see if they've got a few pieces (usually do) I can grab. A bit of streaking would be fine, certainly if I wasn't planning on inlaying the bridge to match the fingerboard, but I am, so I'm not sure it is. If that makes sense. There are a few tiny streaks on the headstock, but barely anything.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:00 pm ]
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When color, figure, and aesthetics come out as more important than the musical application, I think the balance has tipped in the wrong direction...

There are literally tens of thousands of really fine Spanish classical and Flamenco guitars that have rosewood bridges and ebony fingerboards.   Why?   Because guitars are tools for music, not color samples...

Forget about all this matching colors bull s..t.   Make a good guitar.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:07 pm ]
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Rick: touche. But that's why I'm looking for ebony alternatives. Sound is more important than aesthetics to me, by a country mile, but why not try to achieve both if you can? That's what my question is here: can I get both things done.

Would blackwood be a bad choice here, in your opinion?
Author:  Rick Turner [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:24 pm ]
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Forget about "magic wood".   

Take your bridge blank pieces and drop them on a concrete slab or a granite surface block. Which ones are light weight?   Those are your good bridge blanks.   Speed of sound plus density factor plus damping issues. That's what counts, not some color match that's important to a collector...not a player.

You need 'em black? Dye them or just listen to an old Rolling Stones tune..."Paint it black".

You want to make great guitars?   Ask, "What would Doc play?"
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:23 pm ]
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I'll take that to heart, Rick, thanks.

Based on that lineup, most all my EIR loses out to pretty much all the madrose I have in terms of resonance (although it's lighter), ebony's not even an option, and given Blackwood's weight, I think I may have my answers here.

See, all I needed was a little perspective ;)

Author:  mag29 [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:43 pm ]
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Mattia,


if you are still looking for African Blackwood - I have a big stach of off-cuts I want to process to headplates and bridge blanks in some future. You are still based in Netherlands? That?s next to Germany, if interested just drop me a line with your address and I will get you out a rough / unprocessed piece for free.


Regards from Hamburg
Martin
Author:  Dave White [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mattia,

Most things in guitar making are "opportunities". My vote is with Rick (and you) in that tone comes first, but there can be fun in seeing how far you can bring in aesthetics. My weird mind would probably go as follows here - African Blackwood is a rosewood and it's ring and sustain are incredible, but it is heavier than Braz. So - chance to design a new bridge shape in African b/w that delivers the tone I am looking for. Think of Hesh's "stealth" bridge - sweeping lines and sort of aerodynamic, or Mario's thin long rectangular ones. Also you can compensate with a lighter bridgeplate.

Choices, choices . . .
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:09 pm ]
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Martin: that would be fantastic, thanks! I'll get back to you when I'm home and have measured the size of the bridge template. If there's anything I can do for you in return, just ask.

Dave: that's also my thinking, and if I get the blackwood sorted, I'll simply make a pair of bridges and compare weights and rings. I can thin out/streamline the design I have right now quite a bit.
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:01 am ]
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Oh yes, the sonic qualities are 99% of what matters. I'd use some of that old stock BRW that is just a gorgeous dark coffee colour with a bit of oil it would be near black anyway. Bind it and headplate it in the same BRW and Robert's your mother's brother.

Colin
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:04 am ]
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I know that Martin is going to send you a blank, but next time... African Blackwood is a popular wood among wood turners (at least up here) and blanks that are just the right size for slicing up into bridge blanks can often be found quite inexpensively at shops that sell materials for turning. I have not made a Blackwood bridge, but I have used it for bridge plates on several instruments. It is both super dense and resonant and seems to work well for this, and should not wear out anytime soon.

As for the ‘best’ sounding bridge material… ebony may have both higher damping and be heavier than most rosewoods, but and awful lot of great steel string guitars have been made with ebony bridges; would Tony Rice’s 1935 D-28 sound ‘better’ with a rosewood bridge? It has a sound, whether it is what your instrument needs is another matter. We often hear that “it is all part of the system” and “everything is related to everything else”; in other words, the bridge material is just one more parameter to help shape the sound you want. That said, go with some nice BRW
Author:  Dennis Leahy [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:31 am ]
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Mattia,

How about Katalox (Swartzia cubensis) for both the fingerboard and the bridge. Not black, but chosen carefully, you can find material that is uniform deep deep plum-brown-charcoal color (that will look even darker when oiled.) This could provide the uniform dark surfaces to show off the inlay, the fingerboard and bridge would match, I think Katalox is stiffer that any of the Rosewoods and definitely has a higher resistance to abrasion than Ebonies or Rosewoods, Katalox rings like BRW and holds a fret tang just fine.

Perform the drop on concrete test, weigh the bridges if you want: I'll bet you'll be very pleasantly surprised.

I'm way too much a beginner for my advise to be taken seriously, so you'll need to get some Katalox and devise your own tests to prove it to yourself.

Dennis
Author:  crazytooguy [ Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:40 am ]
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Mattia,
   One wood I didn't see mentioned is Bois de Rose. It's a true rosewood
(Dalbergia maritima) and a lovely purplish-red when freshly cut, but it
oxidizes quickly to virtually pitch black. It's density and hardness are similar
to Braz, that is to say, not as dense as ebony or African blackwood. Once it's
oxidized. it looks like black ebony. In fact, I wish I could prevent it from
oxidizing - I love the purple-red with the black ink lines running through it!
Author:  Todd Rose [ Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
This is probably not the answer to your quest in this case, since it sounds like you've already made your ebony FB and headplate and want to match those, but another good choice for FBs and bridges is ziricote.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for all the thoughts. I'll snoop around and see if I can find any bois de rose for future use, but I'll probably make the blackwood bridge and see where that takes me, weight-wise.

Picture of the neck it'll be matching, for those who want to know:


fingerboard
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mvalente/guitarpics6/ban/neck03.jpg

Todd: Ziricote strikes me as far too busy for this particular guitar, which is going to have some pretty extensive inlay work.
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