Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Lets say you had $1000?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13254		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  James Orr [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:53 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey guys

After visiting with Mustapick, Traugott, and Turner in Santa Cruz the
other week, and getting my regular inspiration from Kevin G, I want to
step some things up more seriously with my building.

If you had $1000 and the following tools, how would you use it? Bear in
mind that my shop and storage space = my second closet and larger
power tools like band saws and thickness sanders are out.

Dremel with stew-mac accessories for binding and rosettes. Never been
able to get a true circle for some reason.

1/2 and 3/4 chisels, sharpened with paper.

A few Stanley planes that I can't seem to set up.

Veritas honing guide.

Porter Cable random orbit sander.

A small hobby back saw.

3" Badger hair brush.

Binder clips.

A couple bar clamps.
Author:  James Orr [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Believe it or not, yes, those are my tools. I'm proud of what I've been able
to do with them and how I've found solutions to different steps. I forgot
to say I have a little jig I made for jointing tops. Traditional wedge and
rope.

The immediate needs I see are cutting brace stock and radiusing it, along
getting a good edge on tops for joining.

The things I've considered so far:

A granite slab for sanding joints.

A radiused dish for the top and one for the back, which would also give
me a way to sand the radius to the brace bottoms but not cutting the
brace stock itself.

Go bars. 24 of the 4' x 3/16" fiberglass rods from intothewind.com cut in
half would yield 48 24" go-bars that would help clamp braces and glue
the top and back to the rims.

Buying a heating blanket/temp control from John How without selling it
when I'm finished this time

A porter cable 310 for binding and rosettes seems glamorous, but the
cochrane circle cutter and a binding jig for it make the idea far less
glamorous if I can figure out how to get a true circle from the Stew-Mac
circle cutter.

Fretting tools. L-rod, fret cutter, tang nipper, 3 corner file, and a radius
block for trueing the board before hammering the frets in. I forgot to
mention the 10 oz. deadblow hammer I bought after getting the tutorial
from Rick.

Nut files.
Author:  James Orr [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:04 am ]
Post subject: 
In college I ran the school's woodshop for a summer and a semester,
designing and using quite a few jigs with our router table, delta uni-saw,
and a table saw sled. I can think of so many things to use a router table
for but just can't keep the dang thing in my closet!
Author:  KenH [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:20 am ]
Post subject: 

You will most definitely need a set of radius dishes. It is one of the most important things you will own. I have a 16' and a 28' dish, and all of my guitars are built using these 2 dishes. I suggest buying them from John at Blues creek guitars or Shane at High Mountain Tonewoods..... both are sponsors. Of course you will need the sand paper for the dishes. I use 80 grit and I doubt I will ever wear it out.


build or buy yourself a gobar deck or build or buy yourself a LOT of cam clamps. I have 40 cam clamps and wish I had more.


buy a couple of packs of the wooden clothes pins. you will be surprised at how often you use them!


You can do without a band saw, but by all means you should at least have a jig saw.


You will need a laminate trimmer and a set of 1/4" router bits. The cheap router bits at harbor freight or the ebay kind work fine, but dont last too long. I have several of the harbor freight laminate trimmers and I am happy with them.


You will need a good sander.  I use the black and decker mouse sander like this:



 


The more I use this sander the happier I am with it. It can get into tight places that ordinary sanders cant even get close to. Buy the 3M sand paper for it. you will be wasting money on any other brand. The 3M outlasts anything else I have bought by 4 to 5 times.


A desk mounted drill press would be nice but you can get by without one. if it were me, I would buy one of these and then the fret press jig and radiused cauls for fretting... it is a whole lot easier than beating them in and more accurate too.


buy yourself several rolls of self stick sand paper in varius grits... I use a LOT of it.


A tabletop saw would be nice to have also, but check the arbor before you buy one and make sure there isnt too much slop in the blade and arbor.


buy a good quality 1/4" chisel and possibly a smaller one too. You would be surprised how many times you will need a smaller chisel.


buy a good shop vac with a good filter on it. you will be making a LOT of sawdust.


I'll probably think of more later on

Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:24 am ]
Post subject: 
James, I think a band saw is the best thing to buy. A small band saw like the delta benchtop 9" with the enclosed bottom and a good shop vac will make way less dust than you would think and is not large at all. I built my first three in a 9x10 bedroom that I was living in at the same time. With creative dust control and an empty cannister in the shop vac many things can be psuedo-safely done in a small space. With $1000 I would say those two things would be my first purchases. After that if you can find room, I would say a benchtop drill press or belt sander. The drill press (with a wagner or a robo sander) can double as many tools if you set it up carefully. After that, fretting tools and cam clamps and plywood for jigs.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Whoa, you guys type fast. If you ran the woodshop, then you probably know this stuff. Why can't you keep a router in the closet?
Author:  psl53 [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:34 pm ]
Post subject: 

Burton,


A router yes, a router Table is more challenging. I suggest a laminate trimmer as well as a used 1 or 1 1/2 hp router. A good set of chisels.


Peter
Author:  Bill Greene [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
James:

If you don't mind, give us some more information on your situation. For example: I understand that you're "shop" is technically a closet. Is this because you HAVE no other space, literally, or because you've chosen it to be this way. For example, a binding rig could go under a bed, or for that matter, larger tools could be stored (and used) in one of those mini-storage rentals. And I've got a friend that "rents" space in another guitar builder's workshop. That way, he doesn't have to actually purchase all the tools until he has a place of his own. Are you able to roll/move tools to the outside in order to use them?

Why are you restricted to one closet only?
Author:  Dave Anderson [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Can you squeeze a small drill press in there James?
I use mine so much,I would be lost without it!
And Hesh is right about the PC-310.They are worth
every penny.
Author:  Kelby [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
James, those Stanley planes will be extremely useful when you learn how to set them up. If you can't figure it out, take a few of your $1000 and take an evening class at your local Woodcraft on tuning up handplanes.

And a 1/4" chisel is very useful.

For someone tight on budget and space, here's a good drill press option: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnu mber=38119

Not a spectacular tool, but on a budget it'll get the job done.
Author:  David Collins [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Oh the go-bar deck would be collapsible. [/QUOTE]

The least space consuming go-bar deck is a ceiling and a bench. My
former shop mate David Sutherland just screwed two sheets of 3/4" MDF
to the ceiling and leveled out the bench beneath it. A few tubes full of
3/4" by 1/4" hardwood bars of varying lengths ripped on the table saw
and all is ready.

[QUOTE=James Orr]A granite slab for sanding joints. [/QUOTE]

Granite plates are cheaper than most people think. You can get a nice
import (grade B) 18"x24"x3" plate for under $100 most places. My local
dealer (Production Tool Supply) has them +/- .00015" for under $75. It's
good to find them local though, because at 150 pounds or so, shipping
can be expensive. I was lucky enough to find a nice DoAll 18"x24"x4" at a
local auction for even less. That one is a grade AA, and recently trued to
.000025" (yes, that's 25 millionths of an inch ). That's really way
more than any wood shop would ever need though, and the .00015"
tolerance imports are just fine. Still, I've never thought of using it for
joining, but just for truing tools.



Soooo, if anyone does come up with a thousand extra dollars to spend on
tools, I think you should hire me as a consultant - For a modest $200, I'll
get you twice the tools with the remaining $800 than you thought you
could have gotten for $1000.
Author:  letseatpaste [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
That's an interesting situation, sorta fun to think about what I would do if that's the space I had to work with. I've spent a good amount of my brain today trying to figure out how to most efficiently use my spare bedroom shop, now I think I've got it pretty good!

Do you literally only have that closet where you can really keep stuff? What do you use for a work bench and where do you work?

If you don't already have them, I'd buy a good set of steel rulers and engineers squares.

A handheld binding jig like the luthiertool one would probably be good. It's not the ideal binding tool, but it takes up less space than the other options... unless you want to learn to use a chisel and a gramil.

I'm also having visions of a crazy rollout cart with a small drill press and bandsaw on top, and drawer storage below. Then when you pulled out the drawers you could use that space for the gobar deck (not ideal to have it that low, I know). Maybe some hinged table wings on the side.

How big is your closet?
Author:  jfrench [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd find a second hand drill press and mount me up a Safe-T-Planer if I were you. Go bar deck is essential too... both are really great things to have.
Author:  David Collins [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hesh, the nearest PTS store is in Livonia, with Novi, and Jackson being the
next two closest. You may have to call ahead to make sure they have one
in stock, but they can always get them within a day. I have one of their
catalogs in my shop, but I don't know it you would want to handle it as
it's pretty covered in drool....

I would bet that McMaster Carr, MSC, or even Grainger here right off
Eisenhower may have them too, though I haven't checked prices.

They are usually 3-4 inch thick black granite, so while they may flex when
you are concerned with millionths of an inch, the flex won't matter to us
guitar folk who rarely concern ourselves beyond a thousandth. As to
support, they are traditionally mounted on three feet, for the tripod
effect. When concerned with extreme tolerances, a four-pad/foot design
could flex slightly if the surface it sits on is not level. I doubt that has
much measurable effect until you are using sizes like 48"x96" blocks
though.

The import that PTS carries is called ProCheck, and the 18"x24" sells for
$72.90. Their 18"x24" rollaround stand to fit the block however goes for
just under $500, so I may shop around a little for that.
Author:  David Collins [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Oh, and next time you come by Hesh, (I have some DVD's that belong to
you) I should take you over to Sutherland's harpsichord shop around the
corner. When you're bracing soundboards like that you are certainly more
inclined to find a cheaper, easier (and as typical, more traditional) route to a
good go-bar system.

Which brings me to another idea for James. If what you have to work with is
a closet, that closet should be your go-bar deck. As long as you can
always work from back to front, just reinforce a few shelves at about two
feet apart in height and you're ready.
Author:  James Orr [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey guys

Wow, lots of suggestions. Thank you.

I keep things in a spare closet and usually do clean work inside and the
dirty work outside. I've been doing it for years. I prefer to think in terms
of end goals and not processes. You're trying to accomplish an end goal,
not a process, and that clears the way for creative solutions. For
example, a kitchen counter, carpet square, and the cabinet above it can
easily be a solid go-bar deck.

I like the idea of community brainstorming.

I think I could get a lot of use out of a small bandsaw and drill-press, but
I also think they'd get a lot of rust sitting on the patio outside.

I forgot to mention that a machinest's rule is definitely on the list.
Author:  James Orr [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hesh, you wouldn't happen to have links to Sylvan's circle jig would you?
Or some of the hand held binding jigs?
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd go with the 310 (don't need more for making acoustics, not really), a go-bar deck, and if you're having issues with tuning planes, and you have a thousand bucks, a LN or Veritas (Lee Valley) number 5, or one of the bevel up jacks (a number 4 is also perfectly acceptable in terms of jointing) and a block plane (102) to round things out.

Drill press is usefull for all sorts of things, although I admit mine's terribly, and too shoddy to even consider buying a Safe-T planer (it didn't cost much more than a Wagner, see...), it's good for jig making, light drum sanding, tuner holes, that sort of thing.

Also: a good straightedge, and rules in various sizes. Get a dial caliper (cheap, harbor freight, get several) and make yourself a stand for it to accurately measure plates.

Add a go-bar.

Also, your arsenal of saws is wofefully incomplete. Buy yourself a few japanese saws in various sizes, inlcuding a fine-cut/mini douzouki or similar. A pleasure to use, and useful for all manner of things, I've found. One or two will do.

(Sylvan's website has the plans/articles on making the jigs on it, but seriously, you can go low-tech, make a spare base for the 310, and drill holes in it. Voila. Instand circle cutting. Bigger circle? New hole further out. Smaller? Closer.)
Author:  James Orr [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Good calls, Mattia. I could use the japanese saw to cut out brace blanks,
too. I forgot to mention my feeler gauges and other measuring tools. I
tend to forget them.

I found Tony Karol's thread on the circle cutter:

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?
TID=7456&KW=circle+cutter#forumTop
Author:  Sam Price [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
My shop is tiny. I can get by with the minimum of tools, but have re-arranged the shop for a saw that can be moved about. I've got one stable workshop surface, one freestanding one and the saw is mobile too.

I don't actually build with radius dishes yet (although it is a system I will try in the future) Thing is though, I am more WAS orientated- I'd probably buy a decent bandsaw (we can buy them here for $200), a sharpening system and spend the rest on zoot....

I really think it all depends on how long you see yourself doing this for, and whether you are going to go into "production". It really is worth investing in those tools that make the job more accurate faster, and spend good money on them.

Hobby builders can get away with so much.

I do echo Mattia's sentiment about the saws. You do need more, I have at least eight different saws with different purposes, from fine inlay work to ripping stock.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sam: believe it or not, there comes a point where you start spending more on tools and time on making jigs and fixtures again. For me, it's the fact I, umm, don't really know where to leave any new wood I buy. And the fact my girlfriend will kill me if I dare buy Yet More Wood.

Certain things just make the tasks that much more enjoyable. For instance, I wonder how I ever got along without my big giant bandsaw now that I use it. Makes things that used to be a chore, or at least take a while and require quite a bit of cleanup by plane (rough-trimming neck blanks in all manners, slicing up bracing billets, slicing up stock for headplates, lining, etc. etc. etc.) faster, more accurate, and less wasteful (ie, I can now get two neck blanks out of billets I tended to only get one from because I didn't trust my jigsaw to cut accurately/squarely enough.).

What I still find myself using quite a lot is my workmate. Pop it open, set up outside, bit of sunshine, breeze, a chair if I'm doing anything remotely fine-motory (it's a bit low, overall), but it gets a lot of use. Despite the big indoor, navel-height workbench.
Author:  James Orr [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think people tend to think they need more in the way of tools than they
really do. The last amp cabinet I made was had full dovetails. I would've
loved to use a router, expensive bit, and dovetail jig, but I used my little
backsaw and 1/2" chisel. Took a lot longer, but I still made it.         &nb sp;
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/