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| Author: | IMaflyer [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:05 am ] |
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My nephew, Noah, is building a guitar for me. It will be his second instrument build. He is not sure how to come up with a fair cost. Is there a standard formula you guys could recommend (i.e. materials + a certain %)? Sincerely, Blycker |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:24 am ] |
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material + $500 That is material + $5/hr at 100 hours is way more than fair for an unproved builder. Also it is important if he is going to make a profit over the materials on this that he knows He will have to stand behind the guitar with a warranty. This may sound mean but in truth by paying a profit for the guitar you are encouraging him to enter the retail hand crafted instrument market. It is best that he learns right away that there is way more to this trade than just the building. Then there is warranty issues and customer satisfaction issues. I have seen several well intentioned young people build a guitar or two for friends and relatives then try the out side market place. Take deposits on commission and either not be able to produce an instrument with out major flaw or have to spend all there profit and or their own money on wood sets. That they broke while in construction. I gather your intention is not to lead you nephew on but rather to pay him for his work. Be careful though, because with out reality; life would appear to be a fantasy. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:39 am ] |
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For his second guitar, I think he should be happy to just recover his costs. I don't feel very strong about it and don't have a big disagreement with Michael's take either. He should stand behind the guitar with warranty no matter what. That will probably be where his best learning comes from. |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:12 am ] |
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Blycker, In your mind, what was the first one like and what is it worth to you? Add one hundred bucks. Your nephew will feel he got a raise over his first. Unless you are willing to shell out the value of a similar factory instrument, forget about any warranty. You are buying a pig in a poke. Oh, by the way, do you have pictures of the first one he built? There is absolutely no way we could guess at value without seeing one he's built. You have an advantage over us. I'm completely amazed at first through fifth guitars, some builders are so good, that even their first few get it right. Most of us with that many or more under our belt, know we too are still learning the craft. Did he finish it himself or send it out for lacquer? Finishing is absolutely the "other half" of guitar building. It's just not easy at all to make a guitar come out right with a good finish. This definitely separates the men from the boys. Be willing to accept "less than perfect" and no matter what you give, it should work out fine. I bet he builds you a good one. Congrats. |
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| Author: | KenH [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:26 am ] |
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I slid into the guitar building business this way. I built a few guitars, kept the first one and either gave away or sold for material costs the next few just to gain experience. Then I began building for profit. So far, I am doing well with the business. I still feel like I can make improvments but I dont make as many costly mistakes as some of my earlier builds. If your nephew can just recover costs for his first few guitars, he is doing well. |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:08 am ] |
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Pay no attention to the man with his foot in his mouth. What? Good grief charlie brown. Hesh do you just delight in being offensive? 
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:35 am ] |
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What was offensive? Bruce I am lost! I actually agree with what Hesh is saying from a family stand point. My statement really had less to do with money as it did with new builders building for profit and expecting they earned the wage That said I think the best thing to do would be to buy the material required. have him build the guitar. The look and determine how much you are willing to pay him. but still think you need to be realistic on the transaction. Materials are likely to run in the $500 range unless you go with some really Zootful (drop dead gorgeous and exotic or rare) wood So you really have to take both Bruce's and Heshe's post and meld them. Ask your self what would you pay if it was a factory built, as well as what is it worth to you to own a guitar that your nephew pored his sweat into. It might be a good learning lesson to make your deal, have him build the guitar. Them after the guitar is built take him out and window shop and play guitars in the price range you gave him. Don't say anything Just let him compare his work to what he gave you. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:27 am ] |
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I have to agree with Terry and the similar responses. I have finished 2 steel strings and 2 classicals myself, I'm in the middle of finishing 2 flamencos and will soon start a run of 3 classicals based on the same design. I consider myself to be an absolute amateur at this stage, without the skill to reliably reproduce what I have done even if I think I have had close hits on occasion. I've had the pleasure of having an accomplished classical guitarist play my first finished one for a half hour without wincing once. I'm hoping I can really reliably know how to hit the mark I'm aiming for 10 years from now when I'm ready to stop chasing federal funding dollars. I am personally happy to work for recovered costs at this point while I gain experience, and don't think that someone on number 2 should expect more. |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:43 am ] |
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Michael, This part: I personally don't agree with anything that I have read so far in this thread... Hesh The $100 I mentioned is for incidentals: A few burgers and fries, a little gas to and from the hardware store. A wee bit of glue and sandpaper. You know, all the little stuff that is never figured into anything. |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:07 pm ] |
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One last thought. If Noah were going to work for a factory building guitars, he'd be making a low wage. For sake of discussion let's say minimum wage with hopes of raises down the line. At the end of each week or month, figure the time and expenses and cover his efforts. He get's to work on your wood for free, but he manages a stipend too, to maybe buy a tool or two along the way. That will bless his socks off. Now one comment. I had a neice travel to Arkansas from Texas to build a guitar together. I knew she'd had a rough go in her teen years. It was supposed to be a really fun project. But about a week or so in, well, it got to be work. I was expecting her to be there every step of the way. She took off a day or so to vacation with cousins, so my work ended until she returned. So these guys are right about getting along with family, that's important. It's really about expectations. As long as you are mature, and are willing to accept any level of production your nephew puts out, it's okay. Probably the word that tripped up this thread a bit is the word profit. Compensation is probably a better word for meeting basic needs of someone doing something nice for you. My brother covered my neice's wood costs and that's it. But the purpose was to reach out to a person who obviously needed a nice gesture in life in her direction. Now, from my brother's perspective, he was also out a $400 plane ticket. So he was out $800. Aha, and I was out two round trips to Little Rock Airport,  , see, incidentals.
Good luck on the project. Pictures.... |
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| Author: | peterm [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:40 pm ] |
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My suggestion: pay for the ALL the materials, and upon receipt of the guitar use your "generous bone" and pay for labor according to your satisfaction in the final product. if not too happy give him a few hundred dollars for his effort (he is your relative anyway) if the guitar is good enough I would go $250 - $500 BUT if exceeds your expections I would suggest $500 - $1000 and it will be well worth it! good luck in this journey! |
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| Author: | Chansen [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:51 pm ] |
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How about a pat on the back and cab fare home after he delivers the goods. |
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| Author: | Chansen [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:55 pm ] |
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I was only kidding... I haven't even finished my first guitar and don't ever have plans to sell any builds. If I do ever sell (at least if it's one of the first 5-10 if I make it that far) I would only charge enough to cover the costs and maybe purchase some more supplies without it denting my "regular" wallet. But then again I'm not too money driven... so who knows. |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:56 pm ] |
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Peter, what a generous soul you are. But actually, I said close to the same thing in my second argument for minimum wage. 100 hours at six bucks = $600 labor, not bad for a kid, what we don't know is how old Noah is. 150 hours at six bucks = $900 labor, still not bad if the product is good But let's say Noah goes for the original mention of $100 and cost of materials and it takes him 150 hours to complete the guitar. He makes 67 cents an hour for nearly a months worth of work. I'm sure Noah will build his uncle the best guitar he can and that money is a secondary consideration for him. I've had some good interactions with my thirteen uncles in the past. Some very fond memories too. I'm a flyer 2. |
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| Author: | IMaflyer [ Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:05 am ] |
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Wow, guys. Until I played his 1st instrument I was not serious about commissioning a guitar from him. But once I played it, I knew he had the ear and skill to build a serious instrument. It has a wonderful voice; more projection than my Takamine G-series dreadnought and punchy trebles. The finish was definitely a learning process for him. There was some messy glue around the abalone rosette inlay work and some dust got into the finish on the back before the last coat, so he's definitely learning a lot with each project. Also the frets seemed to be more like speedbumps than frets. Too high for my liking. On the whole, though, it is a beautiful instrument and a great start of a career for a serious-minded boy like Noah. He definitely has a passion for it. I've recommended a couple things to him. 1) go to a luthier school and get some formal training. 2) take your instrument over to Breedlove in Bend (1 hour from his house) and see if they'll take you on. Get some years experience and decide if you want to invest your life into starting your own business. If not, you have invaluable experience and a good job. If so, you'll know more by then about what it takes to get a good, solid start. The comments about family were well-placed. It is certainly an issue which requires wisdom and love in the treating. The relationship is more important to me than the instrument...ok, there...I've said it. Dang, did I say that outloud? Crap. I guess I have to live up to it, then. It is a difficult subject because I use the guitar to make a living. (Pastor of Music) But if I've learned anything from walking with God and reading his Word the last 25 years it's that the important things in life are never things. (Man, that sounded so contrived.) I just mean that I believe that the crux of any circumstance is the heart issue, the people factor. I hope that makes sense. Stuff is just stuff, y'know? Granted, I'm hoping to have a good quality, satin-finished, bearclaw sitka/curly walnut, concert jumbo, florentine cutaway, DTAR Load'n'Lock equipped STUFF, but it's still stuff. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:36 am ] |
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This is a tough question. I think it is great that you want to help and encourage him. I have doubts, based on what you said about the neck, that he is capable of building you an instrument that you'd be happy with as an everyday player for professional use. This of course depends on how picky you are and how much he improves on his second guitar. I regularly play my first guitar for worship, plugged in, in front of a large congregation. While I do that, I don't think anyone else would want to put up with the neck. There are just too many variables to know for sure, but if money is tight with you, like it is for most worship leaders, I'd recommended waiting for perhaps his tenth guitar, after you've played some others and you are happy with them. If you want to do it to encourage him and have a guitar for playing at home, made by him, without any expectations of quality, that's more reasonable. That's my opinion, worth every cent you paid for it. 
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| Author: | phil c-e [ Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:42 am ] |
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blyker, here's a few more comments. first, make sure you read the code of conduct for the forum - especially the part about avoiding religious/faith lingo. i'm a youth pastor myself, but totally avoid any faith references here for sake of keeping the peace in a forum that is global and diverse, and totally about building instruments. hope you understand. second, to answer your question, another approach to "thanking" noah for his work on the guitar you'll own is to cover the costs of materials as they arise, then buy him a nice tool when the guitar is done. if you're feeling a little grateful - a nice handplane or bosch laminate trimmer. if you're really grateful - a bending blanket and spring steel from john hall. if you're beside yourself excited about the instrument - a nice bandsaw. from builds #2 - #6, my reasoning for what i've charged my friends has been that i want to cover my costs and buy a few tools to keep the hobby moving forward. they've all been more than happy with that arrangement. and for what it's worth, my #2 gutar sounds killer. it's been 'on the road' and in the air on mini-tours and been used for recording numerous times by great players. it does look a little rough around the edges, and i have done a bit of continuing work on it. but i was happy with the $600 my buddy gave me, and he got a guitar that sounds world class (but doesn't look anywhere close) for a relative song. when i finished #5 i told my 'mentor' that it seems a lot easier to build a guitar that sounds world class than it is to build a guitar that looks world class. he totally agreed. my hunch is that noah's second effort is only going to sound than his first, but may only look a tiny bit better. that's just the way it goes. phil |
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| Author: | KenH [ Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:44 am ] |
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I agree with Steve and Hesh also. Family is more important. Somehow I missed the family statement when I first read your first post. If your nephew wants to build another, I am confident that he would gladly build it if you were to buy the materials if for no other reason than to gain experience. If you are extremely pleased with the outcome, then by all Bless him financially or any other way you deem suitable. You and he both will gain the most from this if you go into the agreement to build a guitar with absolutely no expectations at all. Time is the most valuable asset for both of you and if you just end up sharing time with each other over this, then it is worth the effort. I spent some time recently with one of my nehpews building a dining table for him and his new bride. (see picture below). I got to spend a good deal of time with him and I am sure that he learned a LOT from the process also. It was enjoyable time for both of us. I let him do all of the work and I just supervised and answered questions. Most importantly, we got to know each other better. I am confident that he thinks of me every time he sits down to a meal now. I hope this arrangement you have with your nephew is as rewarding to you as my time was to me and my nephew.
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| Author: | James Orr [ Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:31 pm ] |
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I actually think it's a cool thing. I'm pretty sure the intent is to show him you appreciate what he's doing. If I were him, I'd be thrilled if you peppered the process with a gift here and there. John Mayes' Advanced Voicing dvd would be a great way to start. Having worked in a cabinet shop myself, I doubt he's lacking access to great machines, so maybe get him some task specific things when the time comes? A binding setup when it comes to bindings and some materials to help him learn fretwork---like Dan Erlewine's books and videos at stewmac.com? Along with $100 at the very end. Small rewards in small incriments are so encouraging and motivational. |
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| Author: | blindreality [ Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:24 am ] |
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On my second build, if my first turns out decent sounding, I'll be happy to recover the cost of my materials and buy/upgrade a tool. That is pretty much the deal I plan on working out with anyone should I find someone who wants one. I figure the first 5-10 are all about learning, though there will still be things to learn on build 150+. But for family or close friends, I'll probably be happy with just knowing they are playing one of my guitars. I plan on building one for my associate pastor/worship leader/ friend on my second or third build just because I want him to have one. I would probably pay him for materials, incidentals, and then chip in to send him to training. If he is really passionate about this, it will be the payment that pays dividends for him. |
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I want him to make a profit, but I'm not sure what's fair for someone who is a nooB. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks
Yup. You pretty much blew my socks off with your comments. Thank you so much for your helpful and wise comments. Y'know, Hesh, it takes guts to be objective and I appreciate what you've said. I'll try to answer some of your questions briefly and I'll see if I can get Noah to send a good photograph of his guitar. He is 17 yrs. old and comes from a long line of fine cabinet makers, so he is good friends with wood and working with it. He turns myrtlewood pens and other tourst trap goodies for local stores. 