Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm making my first slotted headstock. I was just about to put in an order at stewmac for some Waverly tuners when I noticed that I can get a set of Grover 18:1 sta-tites for slotted headstock for about 1/4 the price of the waverlys.

Is the quality of the Waverlys that much better than the Grovers? Keeping in mind that this is only guitar #3, I'm leaning towards the Grovers.

yes, but you may want to stick with the grovers on your third.

if you really want to step up a bit in quality without causing your bank manager, or worse yet the minister for home affairs, so much angst, you may wish to look at the gotoh line. they have a variety of slot head tuners. shane carries them iirc, as does lmi.

Waverlies are the best, But the others will work.
Sometimes you have to ask yourself if you really need the best on your third guitar, or is your ego making you spend the money on it? That's the problem I have sometimes. I think that since I worked so hard at building that guitar, I should put the best tuners on it. The reality is the less expensive ones work just fine. I find that Schaller tuners work great. I would prefer to see Waverlies on my guitars, but it adds so much money to the cost that I have to ask myself why I want them on there. If it's for a customer, then great. Waverlies it is. If it's just for me, well then, I don't really need them.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Thanks guys, you've all pretty much confirmed what I was thinking. Waverlys are a bit much for a third guitar. As long as the thing stays in tune, and looks like I want it to look, then I don't much care. I didn't know of the Grovers until I saw them on the stewmac website today, visually there's not much difference between the two.

I've used the Gotoh vintage open backed tuners on guitar #2 and they aren't bad at all (as far as staying in tune). Not real keen on the look of the Gotohs for slotted headstocks though. I've never used waverlys, only seen them in pictures so I don't know what all the fuss is about.

Only problem is that I'm not spending less money, just finding other things to spend it on. My Stewmac order will still be for around the same amount

Paul, I'm with Todd on the 3-on-a-plate version.
The look is much less cluttered, plus with the plate type, you get the advantage of the added strentgh in a notoriously weak area. Waverlies are--again--expensive options. (Undeniably beautiful, though.) But Schaller makes an attractive and fully useful plate tuner that's quite affordable. I believe S-M carries those as well.

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Waverlys are not that expensive when you consider that you get six, or a bit over $30 each. I just think that Grovers (and Schallers) are incredibly cheap for what you get. I seem to remember gold enclosed Schallers costing $60 or so in the 70s. Also, some find the 18:1 ratio of the Grovers to be a pain.

Have you looked at Gotohs?

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I've used Gotohs exclusively, except when Waverlies are requested. The open (geared) back for both flat and slotted headstock can't be beat for the price/quality ratio.

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Hank Mauel

gotoh makes the three on a plate versions also.

I've used the Gotoh open backs on the last couple of guitars and really like them. I think that I'll continue to use them unless I win the loto and feel like splurging on the Waverleys.

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Allen R. McFarlen
Barron River Guitars & Ukuleles
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

Waverlies are probably the best made tuners out there, but the guitar
doesn't sound any better, doesn't play any better, doesn't smell any
better, and it doesn't tune any better. There may be a slight difference at
most in the feel between Waverlies and some Grover StaTites, but very
slight if any. If a guitar was made not to play, but rather to tune up and
down, and up and down for a few hours of fun, I might consider
Waverlies, though probably not even then.

I'm not bashing Waverly, as I said I think they are the best tuners made.
There's a point of diminishing return in my opinion though. Let's say the
lock on my front door will work just fine if the key is made within
tolerance of +/-.006". I can pay $1.00 for one ground to within +/-.003",
or spend $50 on a custom machined to within .00005". Which would you
buy?

Of course depending on what you're charging for the guitar, customers
may expect nothing less than Waverlies. It's a sales point, or what is
commonly called "bling" these days. Not a real improvement in my
opinion though. They are made better than others, though I feel it has no
end impact on the instrument. Still, some builders and buyers prefer the
absolute best of everything, regardless of whether it has effect on the
overall quality of the product. If you're building a presentation piece, then
yes they may have an impact. If you're building a player, then I don't feel
they do.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Until some recent changes, Grover Sta-Tites were plagued with a design problem that rendered the tuner inoperable. They and StewMac happily exchanged them for the corrected model and now all is well. So be careful when ordering or receiving old stock. SM should be able to help here.

I agree with David on the relative merits of each...they now both do the job. But having used both, there is a noticeable difference. particularly in the superior appearance and smoothness of operation of the Waverlies over the equivalent Grovers.

Since I make a lot of slotheads and prefer the 3-on-a-plate, I buy the Waverlies. If Grover ever makes 3-on-a-plate equivalents, I'll certainly consider them. Hank turned me on to the Gotoh plate-type, and they work well, but I prefer the Waverly style.

Paul...I have used the individual Grovers for slotheads and like them as well. You can't go wrong with this product now that they have improved their quality. My only issue is with my personal preference for 3-on-a-plate.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Life is too short to bother saving 40 clams on something that will last a lifetime.

break the cost of ownership down to a per-year basis, them a per month basis, and Waverly machines are a no-brainer. Don't look at their full cost, but that cost, minus what the others cost. Then take that, and divide by how many years/months you're going to live and enjoy that instrument(or your client will live and enjoy). Is one measly dollar per year(or less for the young folks!) not worth it?


I have some grovers that i keep for cheap-o repairs that come through, and I use them on my kickabout shop beaters, because i can
always swap Waverlies if I sell it since the holes are identical. Even when i forget that there are Grovers on there, I am reminded as soon as i touch that button and turn it. Ughhhh Ad tat STOOOPID 18:1 ratio!!! Makes a sloppy machine feel even sloppier by making it react that much slower. the same amount of pitch correction that just needs a touch on the Waverly need 1/4 turn on the Grover. Double ughhhh...

And the analogy with the doorknob is perfect. I've been known to admit, on record(a search of some guitar list archives will reveal) that I take apart, clean and lube(with moly/lithium grease) our door knobs and locks. <bg> Not only do they last indefinitely this way, even the cheapest door hardware will be buttery smooooooth.

There's also not a drawer in my shop that isn't on double-pull ball bearing slides....

Sorry to ramble, but in my eyes, a person's choice of hardware reflects on their work. When I see a $40 machine with a parting line on each knob on a mid 4-5 figure guitar, I have to shake my head.

More like 100-120 clams difference... For a hobbyist on a budget that's not going to be able to pass on the cost to a customer, that adds up pretty quickly. Especially with the good possibility that my first few guitars may very well be closet dwellers or personal 'round-the-house beaters.

I appreciate quality workmanship, but at some point I have to pick and choose because I can't afford the best of everything, and sometimes good enough is good enough.

If I've got $160 cash in hand and need tuners for my second or third guitar, and my choices are:
a.) Set of Waverlies
b.) Set of Grovers, and a new Stewmac radius sanding beam that I can use on my next guitar

For now, I'll choose b.

I agree, though, I don't understand putting a lower-end tuner on a high-end guitar.

FQMS.com has Grover's 14:1 Sta-tites in nickel for $17.95... Are these comparable to the 18:1, or are these another step down in quality? Has anyone tried them?
link to FQMS

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Waverly Open Back Nickel: $143.90


I forget that most y'all buy one at a time....

If I were buying a Proulx Guitar (Oh would I love to!), I would expect nothing less than the best materials and workmanship.

If I were selling a Donohue Guitar (not likely) I would emulate that philosophy. Nonetheless, almost all of my giveaways have been Waverly's...the ones I keep for myself seem to be Grovers. <sigh>

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

That's a 17% discount... try to haggle that with a car dealer! <g>

Still, the numbers work.

In my case, I expect to have played music for well over 60 years(I started late) if my health holds out. Even if they cost $80 more, that's $1.33/year.  Less than a cup of coffee(unless I make my own at home). Even if they cost $120 more, that's $2/year. And that's assuming full loss of value, which they aren't going to do, so this cost is an absolute maximum.

The Grovers work, and the best part about them is that they're a direct retrofit a a later time. But ten, when we retrofit, we need to -add- the initial cost of the Grovers, minus what they'd bring used(not a whole hell of a lot because they wear and get worse, while Waves get smoother with time).

There are various ways to look a things. The above is a good example of how I look at things to justify them. What can't be measured in numbers is how the hardware is perceived, wrong or right, by others(including potential buyers).

I like Serge de Jonge's comments best - the worst thing about Gotoh open back tuners is they dont say Waverly ... words of wisdom .. me personally, I think they are every bit as good a tuner, at 1/3 the price. Unfortunately the 3 on a plates they make arent quite as attractive or vintage looking .. but still cheaper $.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Do the Gotoh open back vintage-style use the same size holes that the Waverly/Grovers use? Being able to retrofit later without modification is a big benefit.

Mario, I agree with you about looking at the long haul for the value. I just have to balance the long term value with short term realities of how much money I have to spend without going into debt. I've got a new wife and an old house and a car that needs a new muffler, and we're working on being debt-free. (It's not all bad, I do have a new custom Lowden on the way, essentially a wedding gift). I'll probably finish my first three guitars by the end of the year, and $120 for three sets of Grovers is a lot more within my reach than $450 for three sets of Waverlies.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Jon .. I am pretty sure they do ... I use the Waverly reamer to set the bushings on the Gotohs. Works like a charm, after the finsih is buffed out - thanks to Mario for his advice on doing it that way - its such a clean hole, no finish lift .. beautiful.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Two things .. Gotoh make their own bushings for oversize holes which would obvioulsy fit fine. I have never tried waverlies into gotoh bushings - however, just checked a set of Gotoh 3 ona plate, the post is .238 (6mm is per spec, these were gold plated, hnec the extra 2 thou maybe, plus calipers are +/- 1 thou). Waverlies spec at .249 - so they might not fit the Gotoh bushing.

I use the reamer in a portable drill, slow speed. Was somewhat scared to do it at first, it was a students fine guitar, and in the end, it was the right thing to do, it worked so well ... the fit was snug, perfect IMO.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Actually was looking at the wrong tuner - Gotoh std SE and SD tuners are 6.35 mm post - thats .250, as compared to the Waverly .249. The other tuners they make are the SD?SE series with height adjustable post and mag lock - these ones are the 6 mm posts.

So, I would think they should have fit a Waverliy bushing just fine. Same the other way round as well.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Terry...I've used the Waverly/Grover reamer as well. I was able to get perfect results using a drill press at its slowest speed. I just drop the bit at a slow rate until it achieves the desired depth. This reamer is a must for achieving a fast and repeatable counter bore.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com