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Is it ok or not ok?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13738		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Blain [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:26 am ]
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If my last name were Martin, would it be ok for me to make guitars and call them Martin guitars? (Or Taylor, Gibson, etc...)

Obviously right now I'm building guitars for myself as a hobby, so naturally I put my last name on them (Ullrich), since that's about as creative as I could get. And my label says inside the box says "Ullrich guitars". It's neat to me to have MY name on a guitar that I made...

So I googled "ullrigh guitars" and came up with a Harmony central page that had mention of an Ullrich guitar made by a Chris Ullrich in New York. Other than that I couldn't find any web site for these guitars.

If somewhere down the line I decide to sell some of my guitars, is it ok for me to call them "Ullrich guitars"?

Please share your thoughts on this...





Author:  martinedwards [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:32 am ]
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Well I'm Martin Edwards.......





Looks like I'm stuck with "Martin Edwards Luthier" then.........
Author:  Blain [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:35 am ]
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I guess you could advertise as being the best of both....
Author:  Sam Price [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:37 am ]
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In my mind, that's a breach in the laws. Do you have a middle name as an initial after your Christian name?

B.Ullrich might look like bullrich...try playing with the letters to create an original brand name.

It's a real pain, because I have an unusual maiden name, and I checked online to see whether a luthier was trading using that name, and lo, they were.

"Price (married name) Guitars" is just simply......crap...

There are examples of two brand names that are VERY close, except for one letter.....

McIlroy (Ireland)

McElroy (US)
Author:  Sam Price [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:38 am ]
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[QUOTE=martinedwards] Well I'm Martin Edwards.......





Looks like I'm stuck with "Martin Edwards Luthier" then.........[/QUOTE]

Hahahahhaa, that's tough!!!
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:40 am ]
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I believe you'd have to distinguish your self somehow, like by including your first name, initials or something.
Ernest and Julio Gallo (the wine guys)sued their brother Joseph back in the 70's for using the Gallo name on his cheese. They won and he ended up changing the name of the cheese from Gallo to Joseph Gallo cheese.
I think the main thing here is making sure it's clear whose product you buying.

Author:  Blain [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:47 am ]
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Everyone has brought up some good points.

So here's a thought....

If my logo on my headplate says "Ullrich", but the label inside says "Blain Ullrich Guitars", or something of the like, would that be enough?

As I mentioned before, I could not find any web site for the Chris Ullrich mentioned on Harmony Central otherwise I would have tried to see exactly what he's using or even emailed him to see where he would draw the line.

I obviously wouldn't want to sell guitars hoping to deceive people, but I also would really like to be able to put my own name on my guitars.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:57 am ]
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Your probably not planning on using the same font or anything are you.
I'd just make sure there's no doubt whose is whose.
Author:  Rod True [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:38 am ]
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Blain, I took the liberty of checking out the two luthier organizations for Chris Ullrich.

He is lited on the ASIA website under the members section. There is a phone number for him, says there's a website but it does not seem to be the right thing.

Anyway, do a search in the member section on the A.I.S.A. site and you'll find him.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:55 am ]
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Another option would be to not put a 'name logo' on the headstock at all- then the label inside would tell it all.

Of course, then you'd lose the 'factory' look that the headstock logo gives....


Cheers
John
Author:  David R White [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:27 am ]
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I'm not a lawyer but...my understanding was that you could always use your real name as your company name, so I believe someone with a last name of Martin could call their guitars Martin Guitars. I believe there would be restrictions to ensure your logo, headstock design, etc would not be allowed to be similar so as to confuse a potential buyer, and to prevent you from changing your name to take advantage of this...but I'm not a lawyer.
Author:  David R White [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:29 am ]
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...however I bet you'd have a hard time getting any reputable guitar stores to put your guitars on their wall.
Author:  KenH [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:40 am ]
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I ran into something similar with my last business venture..."ACME BrainWorks, Inc"


I got a cease and decist order from a lawyer somewhere in Texas telling me I had to quit using my company name immediately or I would be sued. It was a bluff. Not only was his company name different, we werent even doing the same type of business. I happened to be friends with the secretary of state for the state of Georgia, and a phone call to him assured me that my registered corporate name would win out for 2 reasons: His business was just "brain Works" (2 words) and he sold books for teachers to teach retarded children. Not even similar to an Internet Service Provider.


Unless he sells in the same market as you, there is no need to worry about the issue. If, in fact, he sells in your market and he was doing this before you, then he would win out. One way to make sure is to register your name as a trademark for guitars.


Rather than doing this and even risk a legal battle which can be costly even if you win(been there, done that), I would just use a headstock that was somewhat different, such as a fancy "U" or all 3 of your initials.


Getting back to Microsoft.....


I am a fast typer, but I make a few typo's. One day while I was typing their web address in, I mis-typed one letter in the address. I got a rather nasty surprise....had nothing to do with software..
Author:  Steve Walden [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:50 am ]
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Blain - I feel your pain bro.....


With a last name of Walden I was planning a few years ago to use it as my company name.  Then an import company starts advertising in Acoustic Guitar Mag as 'Walden Guitar'!!!!


So, without the precedent of registering it as my trademark, I am out of luck.


You might see if there is a local law school that has a free legal clinic or office where you could get some help.  South Texas Law in Houston might be able to help, although you are ways away.


Good luck!
Author:  Blain [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:19 pm ]
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This is really tough...

Sounds like I'm going to have to go with something completly different.

Hmmm. Maybe I could spell it differently "Ewe" = "U"

like "Ewellrich"

Author:  Kevin Gallagher [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:58 pm ]
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    When I resigned from Martin Guitars to go out on my own to build my
own guitar designs, I immediately called Don Gallagher down in Wartrace,
TN to check on the possibility of me using my "Gallagher" name in the
logo on my headstocks.

    Don's mother, who was still handling the phone calls at that time,
cheerfully answered and I presented my situation and the plight of
bearing a name already held and used by a long established builder. I
also explained that my logo was distinctly different and my designs were
more contemporary and very different from their well established and
very traditional designs.

    She understood that my logo would be my actual signature of my last
name inlaid using mother of pearl into each headstock as compared to
their very recognized old English or gothic "G" in their headstocks.

    We'll, she happily said that there shouldn't be any problem and called
Don to the phone to speak with me. Don was just as friendly and gracious
as he said my not being allowed to use my name on my creations would
be, "Like asking Michelangelo to sign his Sistine chapel work with "ACME
Painting" just because there was another Michelangelo on the other side
of Rome." That's about as generous and friendly of a response as could
have been given by anyone, but it's just the way Don is....a great guy.

    So...I began to use my name as a logo and everything was fine as I built
those guitars (numbering less than 75) until the 1997 NAMM Show in
Nashville where both Gallagher Guitars of Tennessee and Gallagher
Guitars of Pennsylvania were displaying vendors.

    We were in our booth and very busy with interested and potential
customers, but a player would stop occasionally to ask if I'd built guitars
for Doc Watson or Don Potter. I'd quickly direct them, without hesitation,
to Don Gallagher's booth and we learned that the same was happening at
his booth with folks looking for me.

    With the confusion at that show my wife and I decided to adopt the
"Omega" name and logo that I've used since, but a funny thing happened
that Sunday at the show before the final day opened.

     Don and his wife came to our booth and his lovely wife was visibly
upset as they explained that we would need to change the name and
adopt a brand name in order to not capitalize on their deeply established
reputation. They also explained the prior usage precedent that would
prevent me from using the name.

    When we explained that the confusion at the show was something that
we didn't want either and that I had already sketched a rough draft of
what later became my logo and decided on the "Omega" brand name,
Don's wife broke into tears of relief, my wife Paula gave her a big hug and
the situation was settled and resolved out of a mutual desire to own our
own market share.

     It didn't hurt that we had a nice dose of respect for one another,
either.

    The bottom line is....and you'll find this true according to trade
laws....if anyone has used a name prior to your use and has made it
publicly known and visible by advertising, marketing or receiving press of
any kind, the name is no longer available for product identification by
anyone else. It doesn't necessarily have to be registered or set up as a
trade mark or trade name even though those measures do help in
avoiding the expense of having to serve and enforce a cease desist notice
to anyone who decides to go ahead and use the name.

    The sole exception to these restrictions and limitations is for you to
receive express permission from the owner of the name as a trademark to
use it and i don't foresee the folks at Martin relinquishing any control
over the use of the names "Martin" or "Martin Guitars" on anyone else's
headstocks.

    I'd advise designing a logo for a brandname for your guitars if you start
to build for sale, whether privately or in a retail domain.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Would you ask a group of guitar makers for medical advice, or would you ask a doctor? So why are you asking an internet group of guitar makers for legal advice? [Actually, I have seen people ask guitar makers for medical advice on the net more than once, but you get the point]

I used to be a lawyer, but I'm not anymore and I have enough sense not to give people legal advice on an internet forum. I leave it to all the non-lawyers who don't know the answer to the question to step up to give you that advice. I'm sure it is worth what you are paying for it. Quite sure.
Author:  James Orr [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:31 pm ]
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This is my idea, or at least one of them, for developing a brand named after a character in The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis.

Author:  Dave Anderson [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:27 am ]
Post subject: 
There are quite a few Dave or David Andersons out there! And a lot of Andersons with other first names, Tom Anderson is probably the most famous. There is a luthier I just discovered named Dave Anderson who apprenticed with Bill Moll.I wish I had a name like Kragenbrink or something!
Not Me
Author:  Jody [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:41 am ]
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 But you might get away with caling yourself  martin'S gee-tars
Author:  Dave Anderson [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:53 am ]
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] [QUOTE=DaveAndy] There are quite a few Dave or David Andersons out there! And a lot of Andersons with other first names, Tom Anderson is probably the most famous. There is a luthier I just discovered named Dave Anderson who apprenticed with Bill Moll.I wish I had a name like Kragenbrink or something!
Not Me[/QUOTE]

Well it could be worse if you were Tiny Tim's kid....... or had a name like that laundry bin guy.....[/QUOTE]

Oh man, What a thought!
Author:  Dennis E. [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:17 pm ]
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Howard just gave us some expert advice. Thanks!

Now, if you're curious about whether a particular name has been registered as a trademark, you can always look it up.

The site presents a lot of good basic information about trademarks.
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