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Australian Tonewood? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=1375	Page 1 of 2

Author:	BruceH [ Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:28 pm ]
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Hi All, My brother-in-law is living on the southeast coast of Australia, and of course I'm wondering if there are any good local tonewoods available at a reasonable cost. I'm sure that he could order from the luthier supply houses over there, but I didn't know if there was anything available at the local hardware store, or sawmill. If there are any Australian builders out there, I'd appreciate any advice. Anyone ever bring wood into the US? I'd hate to have him stick a couple of boards in his suitcase and then get arrested at the airport BruceH

Author:	PaulB [ Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:32 pm ]
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Luthier supply houses over here? No, no such beast I'm afraid. There's a few local guitar makers who sell some supplies on the side, mostly stuff from Stewmac or LMI, imported and marked-up considerably. There are quite a few local woods that are suitable for guitar making, most notably Acacia melanoxylon (Australian or Tasmanian blackwood) this is expensive though. Another is Grevillea Robusta locally known as (southern) silky oak, that you probably know as lacewood, this is commonly available at most lumber yards and quite inexpensive. Queensland maple has also been used for backs and sides and necks. Eucalyptus marginata aka Jarrah is inexpensive and has also been used on guitar back and sides with some sucess. There are a few other possibilities that I plan on investigating, Tasmainian Myrtle should prove to be suitable as the density, elasticity, hardness etc seem to be in the right ballpark, and it has fiddleback figure that looks very nice, and reportedly bends easily, though I've never heard of it being used in guitars. There are many others that are possibilities, but I won't know for sure until I get my new bandsaw and start building with them. As for top woods, there are not many, in our harsh climate, hardwoods (and I mean HARD!) are more common. Reported as being the best sound board is King William Pine, unfortunatly this is very difficuult to get due to over logging in the past, it is still obtainable but expensive, the best source would be recycled. Another possibility is cellery top pine, it is inexpensive and easily available. Don't pay any attention to whether these woods are called oak, myrtle, or pine because they aren't even remotly related to those species. When Australia was first settled, names were given to timbers that resembled northern hemisphere species. So that anything having strong medullary rays was an oak, if it was a conifer it was called a pine. For example king william pine (aka king billy pine) is more closly related to a redwood than a pine tree. I think that many of the most promising are probably Tasmanian timbers, you can find more info on tassy timber here: http://www.tastimber.tas.gov.au/ Here's a link that I found on mimf to an excel spreadsheet that someone has put together on Australian timbers used in lutherie: ftp://www.mimf.com/pub/aus_timber.zip Hope this helps, PaulPaulB38429.024525463

Author:	John How [ Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:52 pm ]
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Paul, the descriotion you give of that Tasmanian Myrtle doesn't sound much different than our Oregon Myrtle. Can be had with nice figure, is stable and bends pretty easy. It make a very nice guitar. Oh, Here's one now.

Author:	PaulB [ Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:02 pm ]
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Tasmanian Myrtle is actually a species of beech, or so I understand. It looks similar to the guitar in the pic above but is more redish brown, I expect that it works about the same. Here's a pic of a mandolin that I've just come across that has a Tassy myrtle back. I've seen pics of tassy myrtle that are a much more vivid red/brown though. If I was going to put my money on one Aussie tone wood (and I am) to produce a guitar with good if not great tone, I think the best bet is silky oak (lace wood) with maybe a red spruce top. Guitars made with either of these timbers have been said to be reminicent of pre war guitars. I think the combination has potential. I can buy slabs of silky oak with enough wood for two back and sides sets for about twenty Aussie dollars, or $15 US dollars. Only thing is, I don't much like the look of it, when I was a kid I had an old closet made of it and I always thought it was a cheap looking thing. But if it sounds good, I guess I can live with it. By the time I'm done with this guitar building thing I expect I'll have tried many different native Australian timbers, there's not a lot of information out there, so somebody has got to do the experimenting (and I'm an experimental scientist after all). I'm sure there's a gem out there in the bush somewhere waiting to be discovered.

Author:	Colin S [ Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:37 pm ]
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Paul I have a friend on the folk circuit over here who plays a lacewood/adirondack OM built by Lowden which sounds absolutely great. OK, as you say a bit more restrained in looks than some of the tonewoods available but the prime purpose of any instrument is to sound good and this definitely does. Although I wouldn't, you could always sunburst it or stain it if you want to jazz it up a bit. Experimental scientist eh, what field are you in (don't say the one out back with the sheep in it!) Colin

Author:	LanceK [ Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:41 pm ]
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I hear Ancient Kauri is a great tonewood I believe its in New Zeland, not sure the logistics of shipping from there to where your Brother-in-law is. Laurie Williams uses it alot. Ancient Kauri

Author:	BruceH [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:23 am ]
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Thanks for the info, guys It sounds like the lace wood is my best bet. I've heard good things about it, and at $15 for a couple sets, the price is right. Paul - My brother in law isn't very wood savy. Do you have any specific sources that I could give him? If it will help, I'll PM you with his location. Thanks, BruceH

Author:	PaulB [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:12 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Colin S] Experimental scientist eh, what field are you in (don't say the one out back with the sheep in it!) Colin[/QUOTE] I'm in Chemistry, though this can be a fairly broad subject. Currently working in particle re-engineering (nanotechnology) using super critical fluids. Fun stuff. Oh, and I've stained another silky oak project for my wife, didn't look to bad at all with a ton of stain on it. Don't like the idea of using stains on guitars though.

Author:	PaulB [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:36 pm ]
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[QUOTE=BruceH] Thanks for the info, guys It sounds like the lace wood is my best bet. I've heard good things about it, and at $15 for a couple sets, the price is right. Paul - My brother in law isn't very wood savy. Do you have any specific sources that I could give him? If it will help, I'll PM you with his location. [/QUOTE] Well, I can get it for that price, but mileage may vary depending where he goes, and it'll need resawing. If you let me know where he is, I might be able to help out a bit more specifically. I would advise you to email him the excel sheet I linked to above, brief him on runout and quartered wood, and send him to the timber yard armed with that info. Most of the timber he finds won't be quartered, so he'll have to hunt through the pile a bit to find some. Most of the lumber yard guys seem to know what's required for guitar wood, so if your brother inlaw hands them that list they can see what's on it and pick something suitable from what they happen to have in stock. Bit of a lucky-dip that way though.

Author:	Brian Hawkins [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:09 pm ]
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Paul, Lumber guys must be different there tham they are here...most of them here barely have an idea.

Author:	PaulB [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:44 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Brian Hawkins] Paul, Lumber guys must be different there tham they are here...most of them here barely have an idea.[/QUOTE] Most seem to know, not all of them. Some would have trouble finding their *** with both hands. I think the reason that a lot do know (I'm talking furniture grade specialists) what we're after, is the trade-off from not having luthier supply houses or tone wood specialists over here, you gotta go talk to the guy in the mill or lumber yard and tell them what you want. Over the years the few guitar makers that there are over here have educated the lumber guys so that they know; quartered, no runout. Doesn't mean they've always got what you're after though.

Author:	PaulB [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:01 pm ]
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I've just checked out the Maton guitars website, and it seems the Tommy Emmanuel signature model has a Queensland Maple back and sides, the neck is made of it too. If it's good enough for Tommy, you might want to move Queenland Maple to the top of your list.

Author:	bob J [ Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:18 am ]
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What is sound of Ancient Kauri-Like Koa?

Author:	bob J [ Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:49 am ]
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I tried addresses for spreadsheet and Tas, no linkup

Author:	PaulB [ Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:07 pm ]
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Sorry bob, I hadn't worked out how to post a link when I wrote that. Didn't realise that you've got to do this: Tassy Timber And this: Australian Timber Spreadsheet

Author:	bob J [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:10 am ]
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Thanks Paul

Author:	Steve Kinnaird [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:38 am ]
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PaulB, I haven't checked out that link yet, but let me ask this question anyway. Looking through a Highland Hardware catalogue, I noticed a hand plane maker named H.N.T. Gordon. The company uses Australian timbers like Australian Ironwood and something called Gidgee. They claim Gidgee looks like a "dense, fine-grained Brazilian rosewood". Any experience with this wood? Does it come in suitable sizes for guitar work? Steve

Author:	John How [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:08 am ]
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Steve, Here is what I found Small Australian tree Acacia cambagei which gives off an unpleasant odour at the approach of rain; also known as stinking wattle. Gidgee tree

Author:	John How [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:47 am ]
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Steve, I just found this recent post over on the 13th fret about a luthier from Australia named John Brown and builds guitars as "Gidgee Guitars". Try this I beleive down at the bottom of the thread it says tht the fingerboard and bridge are made from Gidgee.

Author:	Shawn [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:15 pm ]
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There are several species of Gidgee of which some are Purple Gidgee, Ringed Gidgee, Black Gidgee, Red Gidgee. I have used Gidgee for fingerboards and as almost all of the desert woods in Western Australia are very hard and heavy, it takes a high polish. Most of the desert woods are not cultivated but are found wild so sizes tend to be small and in limited quantities. Species includes names like Rasberry Jam, Red Gum, Myall, Mulga, Malli, Goldfield, Lacy Sheoak and others. Many of these are too small or heavy for lutherie but can be used for sylistic elements such as rosettes or binding. I have built with Queensland Maple and it is a very nice wood. If you are interested in trying it there is a nice back and side set for sale on eBay at present that can be found at Australian SILKWOOD,set back/sides 'D' AAA+ GUITAR . The person that is selling it is Barry Kerr, a luthier in Hamilton, Victoria who is a great guy I have bought alot of Aussie luthier woods from. He makes killer heavy curl Tasmanian blackwood bindings with curly maple/brazilian rosewood/curly maple purfling so is totally zoot. I have bought a number of sets from him. I have also built with King Billy (William) Pine tops which are very interesting. As it seems with all Aussie woods, it has nothing to do with pine. King William Pine is actually a very old growth sequoia species in which I have had tops where the growth rings were 40 to as highas 80 per inch!! (I had to magnify a section just to count). It has a warm pumpkin color, very fine grained but not very strong across the grain, just along the grain so it has to be left thicker and for smaller instruments. I have used curly Jarrah (another western wood) as the contrast strip in a laminated neck. It has a deep cherry color and can be extremely curly. Australia also has very nice wood from plantations as well. I get Monterey Cypress that is a much higher quality than Spanish cypress and looks just like Spanish at a fraction of the price. It is a much better quality Monterey Cypress than I can find in California and at a much better price. I use it for Flamenco guitars.

Author:	Jason [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:41 pm ]
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What about Taraire?

Author:	PaulB [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:49 pm ]
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Steve, No, no experience with gidgee. As I'm only new to guitar building most of my research has been focused on finding suitable back and side woods. Gidgee, like mulga and most of the trees native to central australia (aka the outback) don't grow very big in girth, maybe 10" or 12" diameter trunks, though they should be suitable for bridges and fretboards etc. But I haven't really looked at them yet.

Author:	Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:12 am ]
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Thanks for the info and links, guys. Jason-that Taraire is really something. Looks like a Koa / Braz. rosewood cross. John--that Myrtle guitar is beautiful. Shawn--I'd love to get me mitts on some King William Pine! Paul-- Nice mando. Tasmanian Myrtle, huh? Who's the builder?

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:23 am ]
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That Taraire looks to me like Crotched Coco....I want some

Author:	Shawn [ Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:41 am ]
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If anyone is interested in the "Zoot" Aussie bindings I use, check out this item on eBay . It is curly Tasmanian Blackwood (Black Acacia) with purfling of sycamore/brazilian rosewood/sycamore! I have bought alot of batches of this before and it is drop dead gorgeous. Barry Kerr, the luthier in Australia that sells it also includes a piece of curly blackwood and purfling to do the matching end graft as well. It is pricey but beautiful. Wood BINDING,10pcs FIDDLEBACK ACACIA 32"x5/16"x 3/32"

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