Official Luthiers Forum!

I really like my Luthiers Tools binding fixture and have expressed so for over a year. I still do. However I may be about to give the Williams/Fleishman jig one of its finest recommendations.

I say this because when using a hand held router of any kind that base touches the body in any for whether it has a wedged sole or not it will cut different depth of channel every where around the guitar’s perimeter. Now we are of course not talking much. But it may be more than you think. I have been compensating by setting up to be the proper depth at the waist and a tad shallow at the neck joint and upper bout.

In the diagram below I show a double bearing hand router with out the wedge insert for clarity of the basic issue in red at the neck, lower bout and waist of my MJ .


Notice that if you set a cut depth of .302” (binding + side purfling) at the neck joint. When you get to the waist of my MJ, you would have gained .092” in depth. Notice I show this where the inboard edge of the router base contacts the dome and bearings hold the router flush to the sides. If you use the wedge provided it negates most of this error but not all and it is actually easer to tilt the router out board if unfamiliar with the system.


I actually only get about .03-.05” variance using the wedge but if you use the back of the base on the dome and the bearings flush to the sides the variance can be as much as .092”
The only way around this to resolve this issue is to have a fixture that index as close to the bit as possible and as small of a foot print as possible.

By the way I still love my binding tool despite it’s short (or should I say LONG) comings.

This is where having a trimmer on a vertical linear bearing system with the
guitar held horizontal in a cradle, and a guide extending not much more
than 1/8" from the diameter of the outer diameter of the bit comes in
handy. For handheld trimmers, the same tiny footprint, bearings referencing
from the side, and a very steady hand will work as well, though with
some higher risk.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

David, how about a pic of your system?

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

The best reason I can think of for using the Williams/Fleischman jig? "I" can use it. And if you knew me, you'd go out and buy one immediately.   

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I don't have s system, because I haven't built a guitar in seven or eight years.
All those tools were left behind or resigned. I may have a hand held lam
trimmer still set up for it, but I don't recall where. I'm sure there are others
here who have similar systems and could post some shots - there are plenty
of variations on the theme out there.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Here's a jig that I made from LMI plans.
Don't be confused by the picture that appears to show a white pipe elbow coming out of the router. That's just my dust collection system in the background.
The entire jig cost me about $25.00 (not incl. router) to make, and it works well.

Ray

I use a luthier tool modded jig, plus a couple of my own in the same design that I made up years ago based upon something a friend had. I dont have these issues at all. Mainly because the drawing MP has shows the base riding on the top as WAY to deep - that rub collar is at most 1/2 to 3/4 inch into the top on my jigs. The variance is then negligable. My hand held jig replicates what is shown in Ray P's pix.

Dont get me wrong, I understand the issue - but the drawing doesnt show reality in most cases, unless the jig is just plain built wrong. Change the depth riding on the top to 3/4 and run it again Micheal - you will see its mice droppings to worry about.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I also drew up with the base wedge in place the error variance as the tool actully works is just .010" if you keep the bearing in full contact all the time based on a 180" dome

Hesh is the UHMW router guide on the bottom of the router carved from one piece or did you find a way of joining what looks like two pieces?

_________________
A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

The UHMW is a single piece machined part. It is pretty easy to machine

The only two reason I resist building one of the FW fixtures is that would drive ne to use bearing bits. I use several differnt purfling schemes and that would mean several differnt bearings for the bit. The second reason is space

I have the vertical tower rig and I do not like it in cutaways at all

[QUOTE=MichaelP] The only two reason I resist building one of the FW fixtures is that would drive ne to use bearing bits. I use several differnt purfling schemes and that would mean several differnt bearings for the bit. The second reason is space

I have the vertical tower rig and I do not like it in cutaways at all[/QUOTE]

Micheal,

That's why I did this modification to the fabulous Fleischman-Williams jig so that I can use my lam trimmer with it's own following guides and "ordinary" bits.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

UHMW is pretty cheap, if you're looking for it. Most sign shop supply places will be able to sell you (or give you, if you ask for a sample) a piece big enough for a router base for almost nothing. And, as Michael said, it's super easy to machine.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

How many times have any of you replied to a posting and hit the post button only to find out you have re-type it again because the Subject line string had gotten too long    I hate that

Dave,

Too Cool. When I get Diane's STUFF out of my power tool room. I may have to copy your idea!

Michael,

Colin did a much neater version of my mod and posted pictures on this thread (scroll down a bit).

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I happen to really like Dave's modification so that one can use a spiral bit. I'm a big fan of spiral bits.

Hesh, I could be wrong but I think cutting boards are a different animal. I'm thinking they are polyethylene, but I could be wrong.

Rockler sells UHMW in 4x24x3/4" pieces, which is where Hesh's donut came from, turned on a lathe as Michael says.

If anyone wants one of those, I can give you the name of the guy who makes them.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Michael, I have to agree with Tony; in your sketch the part that rides on top of the guitar is unnecessarily big.   The problem you describe is negligible with a normal domed top or back if the part (the "wedge" or "donut") is about this big, it could even be smaller:




I posted something about my simplified home made version on the 2-bearings-and-a-donut jig; it still works so well for me that I have not felt the urge to upgrade, YMMV. Check it out:

My binding jig

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

UHMW stands for Ultra High Molecular Weight polyethylene.  Cutting boards are made from a grade of UHMW PE.  What we are looking for in material properties is wear resistance, mar resistance and self lubricity. 

With the roller (as opposed to a bearing bit) the user has to keep the centers of the roller and the bit on an imaginary line that is always perpendicular to the side of the guitar body (looking down at the top).  Otherwise the channel cut is of varying depth.

Hesh, is that wood dust on your bit!  For Shame!!  Time for the q-tips.............

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

The problem with UHMW is that the only way to join it is with screws or have the ability to machine something like Hesh has, which I don't.
I use a Rigid 2400 with bearing follower attachment.  It doesn't give me an even depth binding channel on my ukes, I guess because of the smaller radii or I'm changing the position of it as I go.  I want to build one like Hesh.  Got to believe it will work better.

_________________
A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

[QUOTE=Arnt] Michael, I have to agree with Tony; in your sketch the part that rides on top of the guitar is unnecessarily big.   The problem you describe is negligible with a normal domed top or back if the part (the "wedge" or "donut") is about this big, it could even be smaller:




I posted something about my simplified home made version on the 2-bearings-and-a-donut jig; it still works so well for me that I have not felt the urge to upgrade, YMMV. Check it out:

My binding jig[/QUOTE]

As i said in the beginning the sketch was without the wedge. With the wedge on my Luther's tool the error in .010" at the waist if I maintain constant duel bearing contact. This is acceptable. I have proved the geometry on with the wedge as well I just did not post it as my point was to show that if you use a hand router that the contact point need to be as close to the bit and as small of a surface as possible to keep the channel depth with as minimal variance as possible. The example I posted showed a router with 2 bearing but no wedge or donut to show the worst condition if you were designing your own.

Not true. some double sided tapes will hold enough for use as a guide surface.