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Kingwood Bridge blank laughs at HHG?
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Author:  BlackHeart [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:36 am ]
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I got a couple very nice Kingwood bridge blanks. Perfect  off- quarter cut, very nice, but they feel kind of 'greasy'. Glued up my top today, and for S's and Giggles I tried gluing up a scrap peice of spruce wood to one of them, and just tried to take it off, and it came off with no problem. Very little pressure, I scraped the stuff down, but to no avail. Wondering if I should just send these back? They are nice nice looking, but you can tell they will laugh at glue, and they did.


 


Would baking help with this issue? I think kingwood is in the cocobolo family. Is this stuff alwasy so greasy? Ive heard its used in Lutes. Not sure how if its all this slick. Scary, and dangerous!
Author:  Eric Mathre [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:31 pm ]
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Kingwood is a Dalbergia, which means that like Cocobolo,
its a member of the rosewood family. Many rosewoods
can be quite oily, causing gluing issues.

Search the archives here and I think you'll find
lots of previous discussion on this issue.

Two recurring recommendations I've seen are a) glue soon
after sanding, and b) try to remove oil from the gluing
surface with acetone.

(I just glued down a Honduran Rosewood bridge plate
and having been thinking about this issue today...)

Eric

Author:  BlackHeart [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:14 pm ]
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 I also saw a post on baking cocobolo for about the same reason? Will this fill up the house with rosewood fumes?


Ive seen people post they dont wipe with naptha or other(hightly toxic )chemical of choice. Just sand scrape and its ready. Not this stuff.


I think this is the stuff that was used in old wood clock gears because they have natual gear grease, I have some ziricote and its nothing like this stuff. I am very worried about making a slingshot with a 25.4 scale with this wood! 


 
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:01 pm ]
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The recommendation from those who've had most success with cocobolo in particular (Mark Swanson and Mario Proulx, among others, both with long-term success) recommend using a freshly planed or scraped joint, no solvent wipes.

The only kingwood I've had to glue has been a headplate, but I look forward to hearing your results since I have some kingwood stashed away for an all KW guitar sometime.
Author:  Dean [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:18 pm ]
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You might try the new epoxy from westsystems that is especially formulated for oily woods, ( it glues teak extremely well).

Dean
Author:  Dave White [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:54 pm ]
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I suppose it depends on each piece of wood but I've done four Kingwood bridges that glued up perfectly well with hhg. I just prepared as normal and scraped the bottom of the bridge just before gluing.
Author:  Bobc [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:38 pm ]
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Hmmmm That's strange. I have been cutting some very rare sets of Kingwood (Dalbergia cearensis) and haven't found it to be any more oily than cocobolo. In fact even less oily. I'll try to glue some scraps and see what the results are.
Author:  Kim [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:28 am ]
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Just wondering, is your glue up around, but not over, 140f?? Over that temp breaks down the proteins and ruins the glue, this will weaken the bond dramatically.

Are you warming the bits before you apply the glue??

If HHG get the chance to form even a bit of a skin from being either applied too cold, or applied to a surface which is too cold, chances are you are going to have big trouble.

Try warming things up a bit with a hair dryer, or just let the bits sit under an incandescent bulb for a while before you apply the glue.

Just a suggestion cause I have not come across much that HHG won't glue when prepared properly, it normally sticks like...well you know..to a blanket.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  BlackHeart [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:55 am ]
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I keep my HHG about 140-(to account for thermometer inaccuracy). I heard 145 was the high temp.


My HHG is setting up really fast. Its the stuff Stewi Mac sells. Im thinking 20 second set up or less. You get 5 seconds to get it on and strait, or else you do it over. Maybe its too thick? I brush it on. Lately I use an iron to heat up the braces.


One problem with gluing may be carried over from general woodworking. I try to (quickly) put some glue on the other surface. This is standard glue up practice in woodworking, glue on the 2 faces. Its nearly impossible to do.


My HHG mixture is usually 50/50 and a few drops of water to thin it.


The kingwood 'feels' really oily. maybe ill post a pic.

Author:  Billy T [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:00 am ]
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[quote=Larkim]it normally sticks like...well you know..to a blanket. [/quote]

   No I don't, you mean a... kitten!   

    Has anybody tried over heating the wood, not just baking, but right before glue(above 140?)? Cause things cool off pretty quick.
Author:  BlackHeart [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:13 am ]
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Ok I photoshoped the image, but its close to what appears. With sanding, it seems to take off the oil and seems like normal wood capable of gluing.


 And that top one is what I mean by oily, no Minspirits needed to get it to look that good. Great figure


Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:18 am ]
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Usually when a joint fails, the craftsman faults the glue. The exception is   hide glue; due to its magical properties, it is never at fault. So when hide glue fails, it has always been ascribed to faulty technique. Now we have the option of faulting the wood, so that joint failure need never be blamed on the craftsman.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:23 am ]
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Don't bake it saute it!


About 3-4 minutes a side, season well, salt and pepper to taste.


Kidding of course...use a good amount of Naptha (10-12 wipes) letting it dry inbetween each wipe. Perhaps it was your hide glue.
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:11 am ]
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Kingwood is great. Clean, fresh planned/scraped joint, I like to rough it up a little like most vintage guitars and hawaiians. (A roughed joint is harder to remove so I guess that means it holds better). Todays or yesterdays glue, a little thicker than what you might do your  marqueterie with. Warm your top and brirge under a 75Watt Lamp for 15 mins or so, (nice and gentle) Get those clamps on quick. After 5 mins the glue squeeze should peel off easy!


5 years, no problems.


 


 
Author:  Dave White [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:37 am ]
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Are you sure that that is oil in the wood and not some sort of protective sealling stuff that has been put on? The bottom picture looks like the kingwood that I have used for bridges
Author:  Bobc [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:55 am ]
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Blackheart no offense meant but there is no way that top photo is bare Kingwood with nothing on it. Did you take that picture?
Author:  BlackHeart [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:13 am ]
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[QUOTE=Bobc]Blackheart no offense meant but there is no way that top photo is bare Kingwood with nothing on it. Did you take that picture?[/QUOTE]


 


As stated, I photoshoped it, but that would be comparable to in person, maybe the bottom is a bit exagerated. The bottom I roughed with 100 grit.


This was from a wood pro who knows what hes doing, I dont think he seals the entire piece of wood, but the ends were sealed.


This stuff smells sweet when you pick it up, that stuff gets on your fingers a little bit. As I said, this stuff is greasy, so greasy that in its roughsawn condition, (which is another reason why the quicki glue joint failed) the glue joint was a joke, just a little pressue was needed.  Actually it was probably held on by the 'roughsawn' condition.


As you can see, sanding with 100 g took off the sheen/bleed/ whatever it is and it feels glue friendly. I scraped and scrapered it before I glued and it looked the same, so I thought thats what it was through and through.


 


I will turn the roughsawn upside down and see if it goes back to the grease state.


 


But yea, it shines and will slide right out of your hand pretty much. The photo is accurate.


 


 
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:30 pm ]
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You are pretty much describing a piece of wood that was treated with Anchorseal or its equivalent.
Author:  BlackHeart [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:54 am ]
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I use an upside down iron with some aluminum on it, it seems to work fine. But I would do a test of some sample wood heated before I take the plunge with these. Thanks


 


The ends of the bridges are anchorsealed, not the sides. The smell is weird, its like, feminine, like oil of olay or...???  I cant describe it. I suppose one could consider it 'rosey'. IMO, the blanks are sweating out the resin. Its not a solevent, its not anchorseal wax, its rosewood sweat. I cant believe no one has seen wood like that on THIS board. If thats what the final luster will polish to, ....


 


We'll see if it bleeds back in a couple weeks. Maybe I should swap em seeing they are so rare. " 2 Sweating Kingwood Bridge Blanks". Trade for mahogany dred set...
Author:  jfrench [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:18 am ]
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[QUOTE=BlackHeart]

As I said, this stuff is greasy, so greasy that in its roughsawn condition, (which is another reason why the quicki glue joint failed) the glue joint was a joke, just a little pressue was needed.  Actually it was probably held on by the 'roughsawn' condition.


 

[/QUOTE]

Am I reading this right that you glued a piece of spruce to the rough sawn face? If so, there's the issue.
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