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lutherie theory?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14277		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Mike Lindstrom [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:04 pm ]
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Howdy! 

I'm in the middle of building my first guitar.  I've learned a lot.  Robbie O'Brien is a great teacher, but he suggested I try you all. 

So anyway, I'm looking for resources that can explain more to me about the theory of building guitars.  That this design has been refined over many many years may be true, but it doesn't answer my questions.  Are there books or websites that talk about general rules  and theory? 

I don't want to waste your time with questions I might know if I actually knew anything about guitars, but the kinds of things I'm wondering are: Why do the braces look the way they do?  What if the thick part was
farther out or closer in?  What happens when you move the x-brace one
way or the the other?  Why would someone choose one bracing pattern
over another?  Why do some guitars have straight bracing and others
scallopped? Why is a guitar the shape it is?  What if you change it? 

I guess the short version is, if I continue building, when I need to decide to do something this way or that, what do I base that decision on?

Maybe all this is in google land, but I lack the vocabulary to effectively search for it.

Thanks for any guidance.

Mike
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:10 pm ]
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Google for and search here and at MIMF for everything that Al Carruth has written. Get David "Kawika" Hurd's "Left Brain Lutherie".   Read all that stuff and then build about fifty guitars. After that you may know what you're doing.   Or not...
Author:  grumpy [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:25 pm ]
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What he said!
Author:  David Collins [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:31 pm ]
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It's not really all in google land, and the short answer will take oh, ten
years or so and a few dozen builds just to get started. There's no way to
really offer much of a meaningful answer to those questions in a thread,
much less a book. Take your time, learn one thing at a time, tackle a lot
of small specific challenges in understanding what you are doing, and
eventually this can help lead to a more fluent understanding of how to
manipulate them together to influence the final instrument.

If you're just getting started, I really suggest not putting too much
concern on the big picture of voicing and sculpting tone. Or more
poignantly, don't even worry about tone at first. Focus on fret work, nuts
and saddles, setups. Learn joinery, tooling, the geometry, techniques, and
general aspects of workmanship specific to this trade. Start by building
the most traditional designs. Observe, think, and perhaps study what you
can about those other aspects along the way, but don't try to run before
you can walk.

The things you are asking about can have a wide range of complicated
answers and theories. Each individual point could occupy several pages of
discussion here, and still only touch the surface. It's best to ask more
narrow, specific questions, and do so when you reach a point in building
directly concerning one. My feeling is that you will soon not have time or
room in your thoughts to really think about them, because neck sets, fret
work, setups, etc., will likely be enough to keep you busy. One step at a
time, and it does take time.
Author:  David Collins [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:35 pm ]
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Oh, right, and what they said.

Man, I'm too long-winded........
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:35 pm ]
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But all you have to do is conceive of the perfect guitar in your mind...and then just put the pieces of wood where they are supposed to go!

Author:  Mike Lindstrom [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:21 pm ]
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Thanks for the replies.  I'm sure it's all very complicated, maybe to the point that generalized rules aren't possible.  I just don't do well following directions blindly and need to understand reasons for doing things.  It also doesn't seem likely that I will build enough guitars to actually understand it all on my own.  You're right about my needing to focus on my workmanship.  Clearly, I'm better at thinking than I am at building stuff.  But I'm learning a lot and having a blast.  "Left Hand Lutherie" has been sitting in my cart at Amazon.  I'll see what I can find from Carruth too.  Thanks.
Author:  Martin Turner [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:10 pm ]
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Read anything written by Al Carruth and take in what Rick Turner says as
well. You might find Rick's manner of delivery not your cup of tea but the
man comes with cred'.

Cheers Martin
Author:  Bill Greene [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:13 am ]
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[QUOTE=David Collins] If you're just getting started, I really suggest not putting too much
concern on the big picture of voicing and sculpting tone. Or more
poignantly, don't even worry about tone at first. Focus on fret work, nuts
and saddles, setups. Learn joinery, tooling, the geometry, techniques, and
general aspects of workmanship specific to this trade. Start by building
the most traditional designs. Observe, think, and perhaps study what you
can about those other aspects along the way, but don't try to run before
you can walk.[/QUOTE]

This is undoubtedly one of the best quotes I've read, related to new builders, since I've been visiting the OLF - or anywhere else for that matter. It's a decade long task for any dedicated, new builder to "just" acquire the woodworking skills needed to master the craft of building...I would say it's near impossible to master the theory of it all.

And I'll agree totally with an earlier post: on the various forums, find out who the "masters" are, and gravitate towards their posts.

BG
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:40 am ]
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Mr. Lindstrom,
Welcome to the OLF. You are one of the reasons we are here. Sharing with someone just starting is meaningful by those who've mastered many aspects of building, playing, selling, designing, and guitar-mongering.   

As a former teacher, and an observer, it's amazing how much talent some folk possess. It's highly possible that a skilled individual, using the information available, and materials available can build a good if not great guitar on the first try.

It will look like a guitar, sound like a guitar and play like a guitar. Perfection, forget it. Part of building successfully is overcoming shortcomings and simple mistakes. And they can be overcome, sometimes with excellent results.

I agree, the more guitars you build, the better you will become. The game is on, the clock is ticking, and it's time to score!

Good luck, Mr. Dickey
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:15 am ]
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Welcome to the OLF, Mike.  I too am a beginner.  Someone here said to look at each step of the process as a project in itself.  It is a good way to approach the learning process.  Just coming up with good braces, split from billets is a big learning step, or it was for me.  I have lots of kindling.  Read, read, read, then re-read it all, before you cut a piece of wood.  You will develop some understanding from the books available.  If you have not read it, Cumpiano's book "Guitarmaking, Tradition and Technology" is a good book, and it shows some of the differences between steel string and classical construction.  It is available readily on Amazon, at a pretty reasonable price.  He explains a lot of what you want to know.  Look for information, and techniques that seem to work for the way you like to work, or seem logical to you.  IMO, if you are doing things in a way you feel comfortable, it will be easier to understand.  It will not all be that way, though.  Some things you will have to do will seem beyond comprehension, until you do them.  Then you will understand better.

But, then, I'm a beginner, what do I know?

WaddyT39384.4699305556
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:45 am ]
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I had the good fortune to be able to work with Carleen Hutchins and learn some of the basics of instrument acoustics. She's been at it for about fifty years, and, at 96, is starting to slow down a bit. She's still learning, though.

There is just no end to this stuff. I've got a shelf full of books on acoustics and spend 'way too much time (ask my customers!) doing experiments to try to figure it out, and the more I learn the more questions I have.

One thing you have to remember is that there can be a tremendous difference between perception and reality. Just because you know how a given change will effect the way the gutiar works, does not mean that you understand how it will sound.

One thing that seems sure: the traditional designs are really well adapted to make the sorts of sounds that people like to hear. If you can force yorself to stick with them as you get your building chops up you'll probably find that you're making some pretty nice gutiars, and gaining some understanding of how they work.

And, if you insist on reading up a bit, go to
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/acviguit4/
and download part1.pdf through part9.pdf. That's Eric Jansson's 'Acoustics fr Violin and Guitar Makers', and it's free!   
Author:  DP LaPlante [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:11 am ]
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"One thing that seems sure: the traditional designs are really well adapted to make the sorts of sounds that people like to hear. If you can force yorself to stick with them as you get your building chops up you'll probably find that you're making some pretty nice gutiars, and gaining some understanding of how they work."


Alan, I think that is a fine bit of advice to someone starting out.


As individuals, our learning opportunities are limited. I think it is best to proceed in a linear progression, branching out as skill, opportunities and interest allow. Randomly jumping back and forth between different concepts can be wasteful of time and energy.


I'm 57 now and have been building for 41 years, hopefully I can continue on my own learning curve for a long time yet.

Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:31 am ]
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[QUOTE=WaddyT]

Edited by WaddyT on 29 October 2007 at 10:16am

[/QUOTE]

WaddyT, you've acquired super powers haven't you!

Bruce Dickey39384.8150694444
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:10 pm ]
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I was bad.  Made a punctuation error, and decided to fix it, because I could.
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:36 am ]
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Welcome to the OLF
This is a nice place.
What Rick and David said are right on.

How to put the box together is one skill that takes years.
Understanding how the box works is an entirely different thing.

Volunteer or get a part time job working with a reliable guitar shop is also a nice place to start. When you can take one apart and repair it you are heading in the right direction.

Many start with kits and plans and that is a great place to start. It teaches you how to make a guitar and put the box together. Most kits and plans will make a very nice guitar. How to alter tone and change bracing etc is a totally different thing. Once you have the box building skills down, taking Ervin Somogyi's course is also a great investment. But you really need to know how to make a guitar first.

Again welcome
Feel free to ask questions. I have always said the only stupid question is the one not asked.

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