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| Dust collector vs. air cleaner... http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=1431 |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:40 am ] |
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I'm already planning the setup of my next shop when I move this summer and a dust collector will be one of the first purchases. I'm looking at something like the new Grizzly cyclone machines, and was wondering if I use one of these, will I still need an air cleaner? The specs say the Grizzly removes 99.6% of all particles .2-2 microns. If I leave it on shouldn't that be sufficient to clean the ambient air? What do you all think? Thanks! John |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:03 am ] |
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Keep in mind my 'dust collection' is 'go stand outside with a respirator, but the way I see it, you only suck up whatever you collection ducts manage to 'catch'. Some of the finer stuff may well escape the suction of whatever dust collection you've got going, and since that's the really dangerous stuff (the coarse stuff just being, well, messy), you'll want it out of the air. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this topic, though, since I'm forever planning my 'dream shop' in my mind, and dust collection still has me slightly stumped. |
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| Author: | Don A [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:14 am ] |
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I purchased a Jet dust collector but I'm still shopping for an air cleaner. My wife has asthma so there is no need to take chances, particularly with some of the exotic woods. I think a seperate system is probably the best way to go. After all, the dust collectors wouldn't work if there wasn't air escaping through the bags. Better to have that second collector. |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:25 am ] |
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The reason I asked this question is because a buddy of mine builds custom speaker cabinets, and he bought a woodsucker cyclone system. He says he just opens a couple gates and lets the system run and it keeps everything clean. He said he can actually route mdf in his basement and see the cyclone pulling all the air into the system. His machine has something like 1500 CFM, so he says all the sir in his basement is recycled fairly quickly. John |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:32 am ] |
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i can't comment on the efficacy of the idea of using your dust collector as an air cleaner, but i know i wouldn't appreciate the extra noise. i built my air cleaners using old squirrel cage furnace blowers that i got for nix and some delta bag filters that were on sale at lowes for $5 each. they run quiet and pick up all the stuff that escapes the dust collector. michael mcclain |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:03 am ] |
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Cyclone or dust collector, dustmask, ambient air cleaner, that ought to do it. I crack the door and put a 20 inch box fan in the window until I freeze out or burn up..... You just don't need to take chances with your lungs. One pair is all you get. If you are making dust you need protection of some kind. |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:17 am ] |
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I agree Bruce, everybody should have some protection if working with dust. I guess the basic question I'm trying to get at is what is considered "enough" protection? Will a good cyclone suffice? Cyclone + purifier? mask + cyclone? window + mask? How do you know what's enough? John |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:29 am ] |
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There's so much dust created in building guitars that it seems both are necessary. One thing to keep in mind is the cfm the dust collector draws. Keep in mind also that how well sealed your system is matters, as well as what materials you use for your piping. I found out recently that my system is poorly conceived, and making a few changes can help it. Even so, my dust collector isn't all that great and I plan to replace it in the future with an Oneida system or something similar. Steve Spodaryk's Oneida will suck your arm into a pipe. It's that good. Mine barely sucks the dust... |
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| Author: | EricKeller [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:33 am ] |
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cyclone page Bill's philosophy is to have an efficient enough cyclone to keep the dust from getting loose in the first place, which makes sense to me. It's expensive, but lungs are too. |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:53 am ] |
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I have a large dust collection system and a large air cleaner over my main workbench. The dust collector picks up everything generated by the machines and tools wherever ther is a duct opening and blast gate. The air cleaner exchanges the air in the main shop space filtering out any airborn particles made by general sanding and scrapind as well as anything that slips by the collection system. Finally I have nice down draft table that works great while I'm sinding both bare wood and finishes. It pulls straight down as you work on the surface. It doeas a great job keeping the sanding surface clear and clean. I'm planning a duct from the collector with a wide collection mouth over the down draft unit to grab anything that may float up before the table gets it. I guess it's pretty obvious that I'm tired of breathing in dust and dealing with the sinus problems that come for days after a good whiff of it. It amazes me, though, that I can pull down a body from a shelf after couple of weeks and still have to vac a nice layer of fine dust off of it. Just my opinion, Kevin Gallagher |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:16 pm ] |
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Here's a link to the system I'm favoring right now, and compared to the Oneida, it performs as well for less money. Cyclone comparison Looking at the specs, do you think this will be strong enough for most guitar making applications? I don't ever suspect I'll be running more than one machine at a time through it. The biggest task I'll need it for will be sucking the dust from a drum sander. It looks like most of you agree I should also have an air purifier coupled with this system. Time to start looking at those... John |
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| Author: | Steve Spodaryk [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:42 pm ] |
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I've had the Oneida 1.5HP cyclone for 8+ years, and have been very happy with it. I recently added the external filter and it's been a nice improvement. Fine dust from the drum sander tended to clog the internal cartridge and required frequent cleaning. More filter area means better airflow. It really is quite powerful. Very little dust makes it into the external cartridge and it's easily cleaned with a quick blast of compressed air. Contrary to what the Grizzly site claims - there is NO dust in the air and no damage to the filter. I empty the pan very infrequently and use my tools daily. I also have the JDS 750 air cleaner, but the best place to collect dust is at the source and a good central system might be the best purchase you make for your shop. I am using the Oneida to "power" a passive Delta downdraft table. The performance is quite good. Strong enough to clamp plates to the table while they're being sanded. I have my sander hooked to the same system and it's a great combo. Maybe someday I'll get a standalone table (like a Denray), but I am happy with my current setup. |
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| Author: | Terry Stowell [ Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:26 am ] |
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FOr waht it's worth as a stop gap measure, I have used a box fan with a furnace filter bungee corded to it and it works surpisingly well. I have 2 or 3 and I keep them near my table saw or other dust producing sources that the shop vac/dust collector doesn't catch. Don't laugh me out of the forum guys, IT WORKS. I tried using the furnace filter material that you cut from a roll, but you must not disturb it, or touch it, or it releases a cloud of dust. I have used the cheapo cardboard frame ones, and they work okay. Not as dense, but air flow is improved compared to the denser ones that I cut from a roll. THAT one is dense enough to slow the fan down considerably, thus reducing efficiency. There are limitations, I can't find a filter over 21" or 22" square, and my box fans a re slightly larger. No big deal for a creative guy to work around that...Duct tape etc. I still use these cheap box fan filters next to my drill press, sander, table saw etc., and will till I make / buy a real deal system. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:16 am ] |
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John, I have asthma so this is a pretty important issue for me (as it really should be for us all). If you do a google search for "Bill Pentz dust collection" you'll hit a site with way more information than you could possibably ever need. Oneida makes a wonderful product that everyone is happy with but it costs a ton. I went with the Penn State Industries cyclone and it's worked wonderfully for me. The unit and collection bin are in a seperate space than my shop with the filter routing back inside to keep the humidiy and heat in the shop intact. I also have an overhead Jet air cleaner that doesn't get used a whole lot. Only when I'm doing stuff that I'm not jigged up for on my regular tools. Like using hand held routers and such. It does a good job as well. I would think you could make an overhead unit that was passive and hooked into the cyclone pretty easily. Funny story: my father in law was visiting my shop and "trying" to be helpful. I was trying to bind a guitar and didn't really have time to deal with him. In an effort to be helpful he grabbed a bench brush and started to "dust" off the filter of my overhead cleaner. I had to jump on him and explain that it was dirty for a reason. He didn't really get it. If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to try to answer them. Paul |
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| Author: | EricKeller [ Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:25 pm ] |
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The Bill Pentz site is my link above. It's a lot of info that probably could be better organized. Turns out I'm going to buy an Onieda from someone at work. Hopefully his jointer and drill press too. |
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