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True Temperament, anyone?
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Author:  Arnt Rian [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:02 am ]
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We have been over this topic a lot in the past, but here is something I have not seen before:

True Temperament

Does anyone have any experience with this system? My first thoughts were that it sure looks like a whole lot of work to install the frets like that, and I have a feeling different string gauges and different heights will throw the system off, and I’m not sure I could get used to bending strings on these frets, but what do I know.

The people behind the concept (Swedes, of all things! Sorry, Lars...) make some tall claims: “With a revolutionary new approach to the design of the guitar's fretboard, True Temperament delivers an accuracy of fret scaling never before achieved in the history of the guitar. Genuine innovation, and a radical new fretting technique, make it possible to accurately implement any target temperament on the guitar, while retaining full playability.”

Here are some more excerpts (but you should probably read the whole thing at their web site, this is from “what’s wrong with straight frets”:

The divisor used by all but a vanishingly small percentage of modern guitar builders is 17.817152, a figure arrived at by way of the logarithmic function "the 12th root of 2" (1.0594631). ….snip…But this mathematical model is a gross oversimplification. It ignores virtually every physical parameter which governs the behaviour of vibrating strings, except one - speaking length. Tension and mass are not even considered.

…snip…

The strings themselves vary considerably in diameter and construction (plain or wound), and thus react differently to being fretted. One single adjustment per string at the bridge ("intonation") cannot possibly fully compensate for all these parameters at once, as they all vary in different degrees on different strings.

The only way to fully compensate for all these parameters is to adjust each and every string-to-fret contact point on the fingerboard separately, until each and every note plays the target frequency exactly. This, which is impossible on a guitar with traditional, one-piece, straight frets, is exactly what we do with Dynamic Intonation™, and Curved Frets™.



The reason I’m asking is because I have gotten a request for an guitar with this type of frets, and frankly I don’t know what to tell the potential client (actually he is a returning client).

So, does it work?!!

Even if you have never played one of the “Dynamic Intonation™, and Curved Frets™” guitars but you have and opinion about this, please let me hear it.
Author:  Pwoolson [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:09 am ]
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It looks like it might work. Sure is ugly though.
One comment: I think because the guitar playing world is so used to hearing the idiosyncrasies of a "normal" guitar, these advances (Buzz Feiten, Nervana, and this) often sound strange. Just my $.02
Author:  K.O. [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:10 am ]
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I do not see how it would work for any but one specific gage set. Besides I donut like the way it looks and you know looks trump sound.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 am ]
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If you don't mind playing in one key and one key only and you're never going to use a capo, there are wonderful intonation systems and fretting patterns you can use.

A fellow named Tom Stone developed interchangeable fingerboards in the early 1970s with his company, "Intonation Systems", and he did all this stuff...staggered frets, just intonation, diatonic fretboards, you name it.    It was a huge success, as you can see by the millions of guitars out there with modernized fingerboards...Oh, that's in some parallel universe...

BTW, Indian classical musicians have been all over this for hundreds of years. Sitar and veena (or vina) frets can be moved to suit the scale of the raga.   Since key changes are not an issue in Indian classical music, they   put the frets according to a just intonation system.
Author:  J.L.K. Vesa [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:30 am ]
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Hi Arnt,

I have played one electric with that system, and despite it looks weird, it is "invisible" to player even when bending, so I would say the only downside to me is really how it looks (it you do not count refretting).

But is it worth it?

I must say while it sure is "more in tune" by Peterson strobe, I am personally so accustomed to the normal guitar tuning and kinda like the fact of being not quite "in tune", I felt it unnessessary for me. But for someone really concerned of the "perfect pitch" it might be the key to feel to be better "in tune".

I guess my answer almost breaks "no politics" rule, ehh?
Author:  AndrewGribble [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:04 am ]
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In a band setting would this system even be compatible with other instruments that have 'straight' fret scales; or would all band members (other guitars, basses) need to have this system too?
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:51 am ]
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I note that this is touted on the web site using a solidbody electric. If you think there are things throwing those off, wait until you look at an acoustic!

When I read your post, and before looking at the site, I was thinking 'Tune-a-matic frets'. That would be the only way to actually get it 'right' on every guitar. Thier method might be a lot closer than the usual for solidbodies, though.

Besides, given the inherent problems with evil-tempered tuning, I question whether it would be worth the effort. The only interval that is really 'true' in standard temperament is the octave, everything else is a compromise and more or less out of tune by the standards of earlier systems. We use it because it allows for all the wonton and lacivious shifting of keys that is the hallmark of Western music. Now, if you're the kind of player who only plays in D or G....
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:58 am ]
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By the way, their web site says that standard methods of calculating fret scales takes no account of mass and tension: that's not true. The pitch of an ideal string is determined by the length, density, and tension, so the calculatinos of fret scales are based on that. What they may be trying to say is that the _change_ in tension with fretting is not taken into account, and that this will vary depending on the string length and material. The same goes for the differences in construction of the strings; theoretically the usual fretting formula should apply notwithstanding those differences, but in fact they matter because (in part) of the way they effect the tension change as the string is fretted.

Nor, BTW, can their fretting scheme account for the anharmonicity of the upper partials due to string stiffness, which may effect the percieved pitches even if the tuner shows you 'right on', and which can cause 'beating' between notes played in different octaves.   
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:41 am ]
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Looks screwy but hey, we may all be doing this in five years.   
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:16 am ]
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Thanks for the replies, guys.

So basicly what your are saying is it doesn't work, or not worth the trouble, huh? GOOD! I thought so, besides I was NOT looking forward to that fret job...

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] If you don't mind playing in one key and one key only and you're never going to use a capo, there are wonderful intonation systems and fretting patterns you can use.
[/QUOTE]

Actually they offer a 12 tone Equal Temperament neck, which according to them work better than a neck with standard frets for playing in all keys. Here's another excerpt:

Most guitars tend to play a little sharp in the lowest frets, a little flat in the 5th - 10th frets, and fairly accurately around the octave. Up above the 15th fret anything at all can happen! A True Temperament 12-Tone Equal Temperament neck has even and precise intonation throughout its register. It tunes the way the guitar is supposed to tune ­ according to the mathematical formula - but with much greater precision than ever previously achieved, Open strings can be combined with notes way up on the neck, right up to the last fret.

Or read the whole thing here:
Which temperement should I choose?

I only know enough about the theory behind all of this to get myself into trouble, but as a player I am used to compromising and adapting both in tuning and playing to make my instrument play reasonably in tune in all keys, with itself and together with other instruments. I have a feeling they are fixing a problem that is best dealt with in other ways.
Author:  Dave White [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:29 am ]
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[QUOTE]
Most guitars tend to play a little sharp in the lowest frets, a little flat in the 5th - 10th frets, and fairly accurately around the octave. Up above the 15th fret anything at all can happen! A True Temperament 12-Tone Equal Temperament neck has even and precise intonation throughout its register. It tunes the way the guitar is supposed to tune ­ according to the mathematical formula - but with much greater precision than ever previously achieved, Open strings can be combined with notes way up on the neck, right up to the last fret.

[/QUOTE]

Arnt,

As you say a lot is down to the player and the pressure they use to fret the string and how they subtly bend up or down on the string as they fret. Makes you wonder if they use some sort of machine to do the fretting and testing behind the statement (see the robot guitar thread ). Watchimg people like Richard Thompson, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck and Hendrix (videos only now sadly) play sort of makes their statement a bit meaningless really.

Also sometimes when notes are played "perfectly tuned to a tuner" they don't always sound "right" or can be cold and clinical - could be a problem with my hearing though Give me the David Lindey "stinky notes" any day
Author:  David Collins [ Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:57 am ]
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Thanks Rick, I was going to mention Tom Stone's system, as well as some
quotes from the 70's on how it was going to certainly have significant
impact on the future of guitar playing. Just like this one, and just like
General Perronet Thompson's enharmonic guitar, and just like Buzz, or
Earvana, or Gibson's recent patent, or the dozens of other patented
systems out there.

It's chasing the wind. There simply is no predetermined system that will
solve the problems of tuning, temperament and intonation. period.

Play fretless, learn how to control your fretting hand, or just play and
deal with it. It's not going to be perfect. The most valid attempt I've seen
yet I've seen is a patent held by PRS of a complex digital system to
manipulate pitch to meet it's context, though it won't do anyone much
good on an acoustic or analog instrument. Even if it were perfect, how a
just tempered scale would be perceived by modern ears (especially used
in modern compositions) is another issue all together.

Do they have a special tapewound pattern? Or a special one for DR
strings?

Better yet, do they offer any Partch temperaments?

I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't. I just can't wait until I get to
charge for a fret dress or refret on one of those babies.....
Author:  Billy T [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:52 am ]
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   They CNC the slots and cast special frets.

   I DL'd the videos and there does seem to be a cetain sweetness to the chords and it plays the same! Might be something to it. They're using particular heavy distortion which doesn't seem honest.
Author:  erikbojerik [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:15 am ]
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This was discussed alot over on another forum.



Rick pretty much nailed it; each "tempered" fret system is good for
only one (maybe two) keys, and pretty much only the cowboy
chords.  If you try to play chord inversions at other places on
the neck, even in the same key, you're toast.



Well not toast exactly, but it could actually sound worse than with
straight frets.  For folks (like me!) who like to play all over
the neck, this is a very limiting system.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:17 am ]
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Can you imagine doing a level, crown, and polish on those suckers?   That would take a couple of days...
Author:  Evan Gluck [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:23 am ]
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I think with the right medication my hand could wobble enough to crown those frets
Evan
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:47 am ]
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I'm not sure I could get my gut frets on my utes to conform to that pattern! In fact I have a hard enough job as it is to get them any where near where they should be and yet still it sounds OK.

I think sometimes we can get a little bit obsessed. By the way even with an inperfect system, such as we use, the player still has a great deal of control over fine tuning the note as you play it. If you get a chance watch Martin Simpson subtly bending notes to sharpen them or slightly pushing forward on the neck to flatten. John McLaughlin used interchangeable fingerboards, but I think he has now realised that no-ome but a passing bat can hear the difference.

Colin
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:48 am ]
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Edit: that should of course be Lutes!

Colin
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:31 am ]
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It has been argued that it was the lute and viol players who first pushed the use of Equal Temperament. Tied frets have to be straight (even if they're at an anlge to the centerline), and that makes any system like mean tone that requires more than one size of semitone impossible. The keyboard guys and violinists fought it tooth and nail, but gave up when they found out how easy it was to modulate.   
Author:  Rick Turner [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:53 am ]
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Colin, you brought up Martin Simpson...he's got the best intonation of any guitarist I know...and it's in his fingers. He also has an amazing ability to change tunings between tunes while chatting with the audience to where most people don't even notice that he's altered his tuning.

Aside: Martin is my youngest son's godfather...
Author:  jeffhigh [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:35 am ]
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the Harmonicas I play (Herring brand) are in just inotation like the vintage marine band Hohner. The chords sound a lot sweeter.


But I need one for each key.


Equal temperment is alas, the best way we have of producing an instrument that can play in all keys and sound accepably in tune.


Fretting pressure and striking force can distort the pitch significantly anyhow.


If I were chasing perfect tuning My first step would be a stepped (compensated ) saddle and nut not this ridiculous stepped fretting.
Author:  J.L.K. Vesa [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:24 am ]
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aside all the reasoning why it is a useless try,
I would guess that there are few people that this invention will make happy, and who is the one to say they are wrong?

I think it is so much based on personal needs and wants and perception, that somebody could indeed be very satisfied with this system, so why not let them enjoy it for all they can?
Author:  jeffhigh [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:42 am ]
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If you look on their site at the various temperments offered , the 12 equal tepered is a lot less radical and would probably give results similar to an earvana nut.


Most of the other temperment will not work if you are playing with others.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:54 am ]
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JLK, I know that Tom Stone's company lost well over a quarter million bucks trying to promote that scheme...back when that was real money...about thirty years ago. So if someone wants to pay for it, fine, but as one who makes a living at lutherie, I have had to learn to draw a distinction between "science fair projects", "art projects", and products.   What I see with the ziggly-zaggly frets is a black hole where someone's money is going. I just hope it's not some starry eyed investor who just blew their whole inheritance.   I've seen it happen...
Author:  David Collins [ Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:01 am ]
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I have nothing against people buying something like this. I would just advise
them against it because I think in the long run it would be a waste of both
their time and money.

As said above, there's not perfect solution without notable compromises,
and the best thing a player can do for themselves is learn to do their part in
intonation while playing.
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