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Larry Bracing
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14778		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
I’m working on a guitar based on the Larrivee L shape. I guess not just
based on but pretty much a copy. I have a L-09 Koa that I love, so I may
as well build one of that shape. I have the rims of the practice box all
done and it’s on to bracing. Below is a trace of the bracing that’s the
best I could get by sticking a light inside and tracing that braces.
Naturally I could not measure all the braces and have to take some
liberties. What I came up with is as follows:

X Brace: 5/16 x 5/8 non-scalloped
Tonebars: ? x ? (or shorter)
Fingers: ? x 1/8
Transverse: ? x 5/8
Popsicle: 1 x 1/8

ures/2007-12-02%2019.17.32%20-0800/Image-
2F324478A14E11DC.jpg">

A few questions. Has anyone used these popsicle type of finger braces?
This would seem to give one less option for tuning the top. Should I put
standard fingers in there instead? The X braces looked like they are ?
wide, but that seemed like it would be too thin, so I bumped it up to
5/16 based on some various plans I have. Tracing it made it a bit hard
to tell. I’m not sure if the tonebars are ? tall. I took some pics of the
inside and they look rather tall. Lastly has anyone built with the X braces
hitting the transverse brace? I’ve never seen this before. Any comments
would be appreciated by those who have done similar symmetrical
bracing.
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Try 2.


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Author:  Zach Ehley [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Link

http://homepage.mac.com/ehley/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pict ures/20
07-12-02%2019.17.32%20-0800/Image-2F324478A14E11DC.jpg
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Zach this is a Safari problem and Safari inserts spaces and screws up the URL.  If you have another browser like Firefox try that.
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Man o man try
es/2007-12-02%2019.17.32%20-0800/Image-
2F324478A14E11DC.jpg">THIS
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Firefox...
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
There you go - good job Larry!

I don't know this model guitar so it would be helpful to know how big it is i.e. lower and upper bout width?

I use 1/4" wide braces for the X with no problems.

The finger braces look interesting and look more like stiffeners then anything else.  Are they radiused?

I have had the upper X legs touch the transverse brace but both remain the full width when inlet into the kerfed linings.

3/4" seems very high and massive to me for the tone bars.

Of course the way to know how well this will work is to build it and tap the top where ever the braces are.  If the top does not ring the braces are to massive in that location.  Remember that tall and thin makes for stronger braces that are not as massive as fatter and not so tall.

Interesting design and the only way to know for sure how it works is to build it.  If this is an early guitar for you you might wish to stay with a more conventional design but that is totally up to you.
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
The L is close to a d***d.  16" LB, 11.625 UB, 10.375 W.

I cant tell if the fingers are radiused or not.  I'd have to guess not if they are only 1/8 thick.

For the tonebars I think I'll start at 3/4 and shave off from there.
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Oh ya.  The way I have drawn the x brace and the transverse brace meeting if not how I think it is built.  I found a pic of the Larrivee shop wiht some tops hanging up that shows the transverse brace going all the way across and the x brace cut off at the intersection.
Author:  KenH [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:32 pm ]
Post subject: 

It is going to be difficult to cut out the sound hole and route out the channel for the rosette with the center of the soundhole cut out like that.


I like the idea of the ladder braces for tone bars. WOuld be interesting to see how that works out for you.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
If you got that plan only by rough tracing, I would recommend that the first thing you do is measure and draw the exact location of the bridge. Then double check to make sure the bridge plate is in the right place and that the X-brace crosses the bridge ends where you want it to. That's something I would want to be very accurate about.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hmmmmm.

Why is it that you want to so accurately copy a one size fits all tops bracing pattern that is designed to maximize a production bell curve, rather than optimize the use of particular pieces of wood? If you're going to kind of blindly (or deafly) copy a bracing pattern, why not Martin as opposed to Larrivee?

All this seems to have nothing to do with the particular piece of spruce...nothing to do with its longitudinal vs. latitudinal stiffness, etc.   It's everything to do with a brand name and nothing to do with the wood...
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:09 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Rick Turner] If you're going to kind of blindly (or deafly) copy a bracing pattern, why not Martin as opposed to Larrivee?[/QUOTE]
Rick-
I think that most folks who've played both Martin and Larrivee guitars (of the same size) think that they each have a distinctive 'sound'.
So if you want something that sounds like a Larrivee....
the bracing pattern may have something to do with it.

Copying a known design is generally a good idea when you're starting out building, no?

Cheers
John
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yes, and in starting out I think it's not a bad idea to go straight to the source...which is Martin.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Zehley-
If you can get your hands on a copy of the GAL BigRedBook#3, there's a good article written by Jean Larrivee with lots of construction details about what he was doing in 1990- things have probably changed by now.

He mentions that the X braces are 8mm wide, which is pretty close to 5/16, and 16mm high at the intersection- tapered straight to 1mm high at the ends.

Cheers
John
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Hmmmmm.

Why is it that you want to so accurately copy a one size fits all tops bracing pattern that is designed to maximize a production bell curve, rather than optimize the use of particular pieces of wood? If you're going to kind of blindly (or deafly) copy a bracing pattern, why not Martin as opposed to Larrivee?

[/QUOTE]

Maybe he likes his Larrivee better than Martins? I like mine better.

So what's the problem with starting off from a known successful design? Guess I'll go throw away my Torres book and just wing it.

Author:  Colin S [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
I own four Martins, three pre-war and one from the early sixties. So I was always a Martin fan. However, I haven't heard one post 1969 production that I would want to own. To me the current production of Larivee guitars sounds much better.

So, I'm with the others (except Rick) if you like the Larivee sound better then go with it and try their bracing pattern.

Colin
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Kent's advice to be sure that the bridge plate is indeed in the bridge location is good advice.

For a d***d sized guitar I would go with 5/16" wide X braces.

Ken/Todd I noticed the sound hole too - and figured that he was not exactly painted into a corner.  With a Dremel sanding drum or a spindle sander it can be sanded to the line and all is well.

Maybe since Larry is working through the sound hole taking measurements off the Larrivee it made sense to work through the sound hole on the new top and draw his lines......
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:09 am ]
Post subject: 

Yes that picture is the paper I taped to the top to trace the braces, not the actual top.  Its actually stock from the 18” role out of the plotter at work.  It’s nice to have access to a 36” wide plotter.  The pic does look a bit like wood opposed to white paper.  The hole is to get the light in through the sound hole.  If you look close you can see the incision I made from the heal down to and around the bridge.  It’s been sutured up with some binding tape on the back.


 


My intention is to use the standard Larrivee bracing as a start point and tune it from there.  Isn’t that what most people have done based on Martin bracing opposed to coming up with something completely from scratch?  The only difference is that Jean has been only been using this pattern for 25 years opposed to 80+ years for Martin.  This is a unique shape that Larrivee makes, so I thought it would be best to start off with there unique bracing pattern, and go from there.  I’m not looking for the genuine factory sound, but rather take that sound and try to improve on it.  I assume the factory bracing is overbuilt as they all tend to be.  Again, isn’t this what most custom builders have done based off a Martin plan or a Gibson plan?


 


After I got in there and really looked at the bracing with the popsicle finger braces and the x brace (just about 90 degrees) that hits the transverse brace, I realized how different it is than most bracing patterns I’ve seen.  I just thought everyone would find it interesting and may have some input.


 


I have to double check the bridge plate, but its darn close now.  You can see where I faintly drew the saddle line while I was tracing.  I’m going to measure it out where it is supposed to be.


 


John, thanks for the GAL tip.  I’ll have to track that down.


 


Zach


 
Author:  TonyKarol [ Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Find the FWW three part series that Grit Laskin did - part one has a drawing with all the exact brace dimensions .. its basically Larrivee, seeing as Grit was one of Larrivees earliest apprentices, but lightened up a bit, and thats still on a 16 inch lower bout model. Trust me , it works just fine.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:26 am ]
Post subject: 
Zach,

I am using Larrivee bracing as well. Heck, Laskin, Manzer and Karol build quite well with it! I too like Larrivee's much better than Martin's. This thread shows bracing of my first top (still in progress actually ) and here is the top before I glued it on.



I changed the bridge plate to Rosewood as I think it will add "body" to the sound. I followed John Mayes advice and carved the braces until the top "came alive" and once the box was together the whole thing just about bounces whenever sound is placed into the soundhole. I have routed out the binding channels now and it is somewhat dead but I suspect once the bindings are on it will come alive again.

I digress, I don't really like the 'pads' for the finger braces and agree that the tonebar style fingers will allow for more opportunity to 'tune' the top. My pattern is a hybrid between Larrivee, the Fine Woodworking articles that Laskin did and a picture of one of Manzer's tops and I mixed in some intuition that resulted in the area of the cutaway and the upper tranverse brace shaped like a propellor to remove as much mass as I could.

Hope these help. I will pass on some of Tony's advice to me. Don't be too afraid to make these braces thin and light. Tapping as you carve the braces you will start to notice the top come alive as you approach the end of the carving exercise. On future builds I will be making the ends of the major braces thinner as well, likely in the .040 to .060 range or so.

Good luck

Shane
Author:  Blanchard [ Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:25 am ]
Post subject: 
Works for me....
A blend of Martin, Larrivee and Classical.
1/4" bracing works fine for something like this (upper transverse is 3/8")
I have done it with flat, wide, finger braces as well and didn't notice any significant difference.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:52 am ]
Post subject: 
Mark and Shane - beautiful tops and great pics - thanks for sharing!!!
Author:  blindreality [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:43 am ]
Post subject: 

Must... learn to... carve.. so beautifully. I don't think I am every going to get my first one done.
Author:  af_one [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Not much to add here other than I've owned many LArrivee's and I too like them much more than any Martin I've played--granted, I've only played new production MArtin's.
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