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Find a class or trial and error?
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Author:  blindreality [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:30 am ]
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I started this journey back in April with an lmi kit and I can't say I've managed to accomplish much. I've got the sides joined and the top semi-braced. So far it has been frustrating. I made the braces on the top too shallow so I removed them on the advice of the good people of this forum and finally have put the new ones on and shaped them.


There just seems to be a mental block between making progress and not. I'm afraid it is going to look pretty and sound like cardboard box. I'd much rather it sound good and look like junk. So tell me guys and gals, should I just proceed with this one and get it done or find a class first? I can afford a lot of mistakes and tools for the cost of a class, but I can probably save a lot of time fixing mistakes after some guidence. I'm sure the worst has yet to come. Thoughts?
Author:  Brock Poling [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:59 am ]
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I am one of those people who learn best from hands on instruction. I **HIGHLY** recommend taking classes. It certainly is possible to struggle through and teach yourself, but a few classes can eliminate years of trial and error.

Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:30 am ]
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Typically the issue with taking classes, at least comprehensive classes is the time, distance and money. There are a lot of 2-4 week lutherie classes out there that offer such programs with an eye towards the hobbyist and part time builders. Then there are true craft school that are set up to service those with a professional intent. These schools tend to have a much longer time frame and more indepth curriculum.

Personally I would love to addend either but like many of us with a full time carrier to support or families. Both options are difficult to make work for us.

But to answer your question I would say if you can swing it. attend a school. The more detailed the instruction the better.

If you can't swing it then take your time. Read all you can. make alliances with other builders and let them impart their insight and knowledge. Keep good notes on everything. The good, the bad, The whys and the why nots. Don't let the mistakes or short comings get you down. Work your way through them. Keep building and learning.

As someone wiser than me once wrote "The difference between a master luthier and an apprentice is the apprentice is searching for new mistakes to make while the master has made them all"
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:42 am ]
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All good advice above Jared.

If you can't find a mentor type in your area or a class is not something that will be available to you for some reason I would recommend the following:

Stew-Mac kits come with an excellent pictorial instruction guide and a DVD and even a klutz like me who never did any wood working before was able to assemble one in a vacuum (meaning I was not on any forum, knew no one who did this, and had no help, that I was aware of, available to me).  Put the current guitar aside until you have learned more and then things will make much more sense to you.

With a Stem-Mac kit the rosette is installed, the braces are carved and the guitars sound great when completed.  It is not unlike putting together a model airplane kit and again very well documented through every step of the building process.

So - if you think that you are still very drawn to guitar building that is what I would do.  As Todd indicated the first one is very hard but my first being a Stew-Mac kit was much more fun then it was hard.  And I think that is exactly what we all would want this to be?  Fun!

Hang in this happens to us all and I am sure that you can break through and feel much better about guitar building.
Author:  mgcain [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:49 am ]
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The first guitar I built was a kit from US Guitar Kits, and it was done in a class at the local Woodcraft store.  One night a week for 6 weeks and the guitar is excellent.  I learned enough in that class that I am comfortable tackling the next one on my own from scratch, (as long as i have the security blanket of this forum handy).  I didn't know squat about guitar-making prior to that.


There's a very famous luthier about 30 miles from me that charges $5k for a 2 week 1:1 class building from scratch.  That's a little out of my range but I'm sure its worth it. 


I would not have tackled this were it not for the kit class.  I highly recommend it to first-timers.  I teach cabinetmaking at that woodworking school, and my woodworking skills are pretty good.  Now I am applying them to learning all I can about the finer points of guitar-making, building on what I learned in the class...


 
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:54 am ]
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Jared...All good advice above.

A few additional comments based on reading you're building blog. Incidentally, the pictures are not appearing but I learned a little from your text.

My comments...Start your first with inexpensive wood. Believe me...Zebrawood and Mastrer grade Sitka will not make one bit of difference in the sound of your first. Instead, go with a lower grade of Sitka, use EIR or Mahogany and just concentrate a lot more on technique and execution.

And most importantly, have parience and keep the faith that you can do this. By all means, post often and ask questions here on the OLF. We've all been where you are and we won't let you fail!
Author:  Bill Greene [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:10 am ]
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I had zero woodworking experience, so I built my first with a semi-local established builder. I'd have to agree with Brock on this one...building with someone would could explain concepts, and tool use, etc. has taken years off the learning curve.

Post where you live on this thread. There might be luthiers on this forum that would be willing to offer some guidance. If not, they may know someone in your area who will.

But no matter what happens, keep at it. Post up photos here, and ask advice. There is no shortage of help on this forum.

Bill
Author:  Dave Anderson [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:21 am ]
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Yes, A class would be the way to go if you can. There are many schools out there for guitar building and repair.
Author:  blindreality [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:40 am ]
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The Zebrawood was choosen because I had never seen a guitar made from it and I like Zebrawood. I've made a few knife handles using it and loved the results. Mainly though, it was a unique choice. As for the sitka.. I was much more hopeful at the time. I live in Altus Oklahoma, the very southwest corner of this great state.


Don't get me wrong, I am no where near willing to give up, just a little tired and frustrated. I look at it and hope I've done things right to this point so I don't find out later that I missed some little step that changes everything. Most of all, I want it to sound kind of nice. I don't expect it to sound like my Taylors or as good as the guitars some of you have built, just nice enough to be willing to play it. The next one may be better, but it will surely be different. I'm not looking for a career here, I already have one, but a good hobby, sure.
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:58 am ]
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A class would be great, but I think in todays day and age I would'nt underestimate the power of the internet.  I cant stress enough how valuable the OLF archive and other web pages have been for me.  I have a bunch of books, the Mayes DVDs, Obriens DVDs.  These all gave me 10 different ways to do each step.  I'd love to take a 2-4 week class, but like many around here I do this for fun.  I have to work my real job to support my WAS AND TAS.  Being an engineer who is handy helps out a lot, but can cause over thinking of every detail.  I guess that ME degree was a five year class of sorts.  Just read and watch as much as you can.  If I had to recommend one thing, get the Mayes DVDs.  There Grrrrrrrreat.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:14 am ]
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Jared, I for one found classes frustrating. The local college Art teacher that started it moved on to study for his PHD and turned the class over to his former guitarmaking student. I was in that latter class.

While he'd built a number of successful guitars and a few students under him got one together, I did not. So for various reason distractions do get in the way of building.

Time and proximity to a good class over time would be wonderful, but rarely exist.

In your remote location it seems that DVD and video are the way to go. You mentioned you run some related businesses, so I know your time is limited like most of us for building.

I would encourage you this way. Break down the huge job of building a guitar into small steps and try to accomplish small portions at a time. That way, you'll not feel overwhelmed and can feel good all along the way at your mini-successes.

For me, I have a row of completed bodies and a pile of necks. I was going for building close to a dozen the first time around. Good Grief Charlie Brown, what was I thinking?

After just completing number six, I do have this head of steam now and can imagine getting more done in shorter times. It's a good feeling. Concentrate, and let us help you all we can. Bruce
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:49 am ]
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Jared,

If you happen to have any questions regarding my DVD in the LMI kit, just let me know and I will be glad to answer them and talk you through the steps.
Good luck.
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:10 am ]
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Hang in there Todd, you can do this.

Whenever I get a block, I go back to Cumpiano or another book depending on the task at hand and the strength of the book regarding that subject. It helps me visualize the task and the goal. To that end, Robbie's DVD(s) have been helpful for many, including the finishing DVD, which I have and have referred to often.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:18 am ]
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[QUOTE=blindreality] There just seems to be a mental block between making progress and not. I'm afraid it is going to look pretty and sound like cardboard box. I'd much rather it sound good and look like junk.
[/QUOTE]

There's your problem; you worry too much about the result. Concentrate more on the process, it's only your first guitar! No matter how good you are, the next one will be better (or at least the next one after that...), class or no class.

'Perfect is the enemy of good'.

Author:  Brock Poling [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:00 am ]
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[QUOTE=zehley]

A class would be great, but I think in todays day and age I would'nt underestimate the power of the internet.  I cant stress enough how valuable the OLF archive and other web pages have been for me.  I have a bunch of books, the Mayes DVDs, Obriens DVDs.  These all gave me 10 different ways to do each step.  I'd love to take a 2-4 week class, but like many around here I do this for fun.  I have to work my real job to support my WAS AND TAS.  Being an engineer who is handy helps out a lot, but can cause over thinking of every detail.  I guess that ME degree was a five year class of sorts.  Just read and watch as much as you can.  If I had to recommend one thing, get the Mayes DVDs.  There Grrrrrrrreat.

[/QUOTE]


Coming from one of the guys who runs this board this might be surprising... but....

While I think the internet is great and I am an avid junkie for books and videos... (for me anyway) nothing replaces live instruction. And I am not referring to instruction from a guy who has put together a couple of kits on his kitchen table. I mean serious training with a pro.

If you can't swing that either from a time or financial perspective that is fine. There are certainly lots of great resources to learn from. I am not saying that you can't learn via this method. But to think that the internet can be a equally valid replacement for live instruction is not accurate in my book.

Again, I have never once regretted any money I have spent on training. I think it has saved me more money in the long run than it has cost me.

So provided you have the cash and can get the time away I would highly recommend it.



Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:51 am ]
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Jared-
As a 'strictly amateur' builder, I'd second Arnt's advice: just keep pushing on. I'm sure you will be happy with your first guitar, and if you follow a decent set of plans/book it should be perfectly acceptable.
When I built my first guitar (in '77), I only had one book (Sloane) and obviously Videos and Internet were not around. In some ways, it made things much easier to have less information. (I thought I was 'cheating' when I used my new 4" jointer (junk) to square up the neck stock). It's easy to get 'paralyzed' with the many different techniques and choices available these days.
re: Brock's comment on 'live' vs other instruction:
If you have the cash, a course can be useful- I've only taken one. Make sure you get a clear picture of what 'live instruction' entails- When you need help/advice, will you have to 'tug on the sleeve' of the busy pro, and interrupt his work-in-progress, or will the teacher be 100% dedicated to teaching the class?

Also, you should be able to learn more from a class if you have some experience under your belt, and some hand tool skills, etc. In the class I took (4 students, 24 days) the two 'novice' builders were both skilled woodworkers- one a carpenter and the other a young cabinetmaker-to-be- both produced fine guitars. So finishing that guitar you are working on is a good idea, even if you do find a class later.

Also, keep in mind that professional builders can take advantage of tax breaks for 'training' that may not be available to the rest of us, so the 'value for money' equation may be different.

Cheers
John
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:14 am ]
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I think you should push through and finish the first build, and then do what I did: nag Al Carruth for a year until he agrees to let you come study with him

For Luthier Brainz(TM)/Money, I don't think anyone's ever gotten a better deal on a course than I did when I studied with Al. I won't mention the pricing at that time, but suffice to say that what I paid for my month of study seems like a pretty small chunk of change compared to what many of the two-week courses cost. And Al's a superhero. Really.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:42 am ]
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As usual, I think what you should do depends on what the problem is. If you're having trouble making progress because you just don't know what you should do next, then maybe written materials, tapes, or on-line help like this forum is all you will need to get you through. If, OTOH, the problem is difficulty getting started because of self-doubt or plain old inertia, a class of some sort might help. Some of my students have said they'd never have finished on their own, simply because of all the distractions that come up when you take on a long project.
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:52 am ]
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While one on one with a GOOD instructor is a great way to learn, I don't think that the newer forms of information should be underestimated.  In my professional life, I have been through a LOT of technical training classes.  Maybe its just me, but I am far too often very disappointed with what I got out of those classes for the time it took.  Unless its one on one, there is always someone holding things up.  Forums and DVDs allow us to gather a vast amount of knowledge without investing 2-4 weeks at a time.  This allows us to chose from many ways of doing things instead of one instructors way.  You get stuck, post on the OLF, and you have all sorts of people giving you options to get going again.  This was not available 20-30+ years ago when a school or apprenticeship was the only way to learn these things.  At 32, I'm on the edge of the internet generation.  Those younger than me did a lot more learning on the net, so I think this method of learning is only going to get more prevalent.  Unless your planning on doing this for a living, most would not have the time for a one on one training course.  The internet allows us to gain a lot of this knowledge piece by piece.  I'm an info junkie, so getting input from so many different pros and experienced people, I feel, is just as valuable.
Author:  Anthony Z [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:54 am ]
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Jared,

The question you pose is not a simple one to answer as most of the replies with the exception of Al Caruth, is based on own personal experience and perspective.

Having a guy like Robbie O’Brien step up and say contact him directly is priceless. Take him up on it. Some building problems are more easily solved with an email or a phone conversation with an experienced builder than asking questions on a forum such as the OLF. Don’t get me wrong this place is a tremendous resource and a great source of knowledge and inspiration.

We all learn differently and learn better by different ways. I don’t know what works best for you.

I am of the same ilk as Arnt and suggest you press on. My view is the lessons you learn yourself with your own problem solving will stick in your memory better than that which you would gain in a crash building course. I’d bet you’d benefit from a course moreso after you have completed your first on your own than taking a course right away.   It’ll be some much easier to relate and understand what is being taught after you have been there at least once yourself.

My first acoustic guitar was an archtop which is more difficult to build than a flattop and I built it with the aid of a book and the corresponding videos plus help from online guitar building forums. It turned out sonically and aesthetically well for a first and I still play it to this day. Trust me, if I can do it, anyone with determination can accompolish same. The thing I fear from a course is that the teacher shows you their way of doing things rather than you figuring out techniques that work best for you. Looking back at the Benedetto book and videos I now do things a lot differently than he instructs.

I am at the point now where I would love to take a course that is more focused on better voicing an instrument and less so than the mechanics of construction and I haven’t built many acoustics.

If you get stuck or get discouraged – there are a lot of great people who will help you out.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:23 am ]
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I read through the thread to see if anyone had already given the advice I would give and I had to read all the way to the last thread.


What Terry said! (now it's up to 4 cents worth) For most classes, the more experience you have going in, the more you get out of the class. You will know better what you need extra help with and you will likely walk away with a deeper understanding of everything.


This assumes of course that, like the potato chip commercial, you can't stop with one. Has anyone only built one guitar and been done?
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:06 pm ]
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[QUOTE=blindreality]

Don't get me wrong, I am no where near willing to give up, just a little tired and frustrated. I look at it and hope I've done things right to this point so I don't find out later that I missed some little step that changes everything.

[/QUOTE]

Two things - first maybe take a break for a while.  With me as time passes I tend to forget the bad experience and again start dreaming of what I would hope to accomplish.  I have a dear friend who took a break from a specific guitar for 4 years.  When he picked it back up his vision and skill sets were both stronger and now he is having a great time with it and the guitar looks killer.

Second - on my first few I was worried all along the way that I would have done something catastrophically incorrect and the thing was going to explode on me.  You should have seen me when I first strung it up, safety glasses on, long sleeve coat on,  athletic cup etc.  I was scared to death that the thing was going to hurt me as it self destructed........  Seriously.  I was holding my face back, and still do by the way.......

But you know it all works out in the end and the acoustic guitar with a traditional design is an incredible design in as much as once assembled it all works in concert (pardon the pun) to hold itself together.  The dove tail joint is an example of this.  Rosettes which I thought were window dressing are actually designed to strengthen the sound hole area and stop cracks from running in that region.  It's a design that has been largely unchanged for 100 years and there is a very good reason for this - it works.

And lastly - I know this is more then 2 things but I am nuts so bear with me there is NOTHING like the feeling you will get when that first string is tuned up to pitch and you here her sing for the very first time.  It will just blow your mind and then when you play a guitar that you built the grins are from ear to ear.  Not to mention the people in your life will be impressed and tell you so. 

So Jared my friend it is all very much worth it and if you want to continue now Robbie's offer is as good as it gets and he is an incredible communicator and a very nice guy too.  If you want to take a break for while that is cool too - it is supposed to be fun and not something that stresses you out.
Author:  LPMc [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:04 pm ]
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If you are in the Los Angeles / Orange County area, we have guitarmaking classes starting in January after the NAMM show.


Steel string classes are taught by Eric Nichols, a guitarmaker for nearly 20 years and a former Guitarmaking instructor at Orange Coast College.


Classic guitarmaking classes are taught by Monica Esparza, who has studied with Jose Romanillos in his masterclasses in Siguenza, Spain.


Check out the website under "Classes"


 
Author:  LPMc [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:06 pm ]
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That would be www.simscal.com


 


 
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