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1839 d Lorca
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14844
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Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:26 am ]
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I got to (briefly) examine a beautiful old guitar yesterday. Very small, still in its original coffin case. The label said:
Antonio d Lorca
    one Malago
     Ano 1839

Anyone know anything about this builder?
It still has its ivory friction pegs, and what looks to be the original ebony moustache bridge. Spanish heel, and my guess is European Walnut b/s with a mild curl.
Top? European something-or-other.
Sides are either 2-piece, or inlaid all around with a 1/8" holly (?) spacer. Neck looks to be Cedar.
It is very lightly built.
Sweet little guitar.

Ever seen one? Know anything?

Thanks,

Steve

Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:51 am ]
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Antonio de Lorca Garcia was born in Cartagena in 1798 and died in Malaga in 1870. He was the founder of a family of guitar makers that included his son Antonio de Lorca Pino, and grandson Antonio de Lorca Ramirez. The family trained numerous makers, and so is considered the most influential and important group of Malaga guitar makers in the 19th century

Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:53 am ]
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http://azstarnet.com/public/commerce/zavaletas/greene/zmalag a.htm

Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:06 am ]
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Thanks Bruce!

SK

Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:16 am ]
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pics?

Author:  DP LaPlante [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:44 am ]
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On this side of the pond Spanish guitars from the first half of the 19th century are (quite) rare. These pre-Torres guitars are very interesting and some are quite revealing as to the origins of modern American guitars.


I recently acquired an early guitar by Jose' Recio of Cadiz. This particular guitar is astonishingly similar to some of the early Martin guitars of the 1840's.


Yes Pics please!    


Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:46 pm ]
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Thanks for the info, David.
Unfortunately, I did not have my camera with me when the guitar was viewed.
No pics.
However, the guitar is now owned by the local music store, so I should be able to visit it as frequently as I want. Next time I go there, I'll have not only a camera, but an inspection mirror.

Thanks again,

Steve

Author:  Shawn [ Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:14 am ]
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Steve,


Do you know if they are planning on selling it or what their plans are for it?  Is there someone I can contact to find out?


I collect historic Spanish guitars and am also involved in helping Jose Romanillos to establish a permanent museum to the Spanish guitar.  As David said, in the US we dont get to see too many older Spanish guitars so it is always interesting when we get to see one.


Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:32 am ]
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Shawn, let me ask the owner if he's interested in parting with this little gem. He just purchased the instrument, so the offer will have to be persuasive.
I will add this, he bought it thinking it was Brazilian Rosewood. I haven't informed him yet of my thoughts about the back/sides. That may factor in on his decision.

Assuming it was not Brazilian, but as it appears--Euro Walnut--what do you suppose a ballpark pricerange would be?

Thanks,
Steve

Author:  Shawn [ Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:28 am ]
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It is tough to value the Lorca without seeing it.  In general guitars as collectables tend to place less value on the age or historic nature of an instrument.  That is the reason that a 19th century Martin will sell for far below what a pre-war 30's-40's dread will sell for.


It is even more so with historic Spanish guitars...Today a Bouchet or Fleta from the 50's will sell for a fortune ($30-50K +) and yet a 19th century french or spanish guitar will sell for much less than $2000.


There is a very well know Madrid builder who has a really nice collection of historic guitars that had contacted a famous auction house about selling his collection at auction.  The auction house sent an appraiser to value the instruments but ended up throwing him out as there was no recognition of the historic value and relative rarity of the instruments, all because the names of the builders were not in vogue.


My interest is not for the appreciation in value of the guitar as it would be better to invest in early 50's fenders...it is to acquire it to donate it to the Spanish guitar museum that I am helping Jose Romanillos to establish.


I am not saying any of this in an attempt to influence or talk the owner into parting with the instrument at a bargain price...it is just the situation with most historic instruments, especially guitars.  When you consider that even Torres guitars have sold for less than a very good violin bow does, the disparity in price is very discouraging.


If it looks like European Walnut it probably is.  I have seen many Spanish guitars, especially ones from Malaga and Valencia that were built of euro walnut.  It makes a good sounding guitar but not an exciting wood.  Just as today a Mahogany guitar is thought by some to be a less guitar than Rosewood (thanks to many poor student guitars), Walnut was seem as something like a poor mans Rosewood.  The guitar would not be mistaken for a cypress "gypsy" flamenco guitar but was still a fine rosewood guitar.


In the past Valencia was the home to guitar "factories" that would produce student grade guitars with any label you want whereas Malaga was known for having the best french polishers.  It was traditionally women who would be given the task of french polishing (as it still is in Mexico today) all based on the excuse that women had smaller hands.


Tough to say what a ballpark for a Lorca would be sight unseen but it could be anywhere from ~$500 to maybe $2000...possibly more but not much more.  Its value is mostly to collectors of Spanish guitars.  Feel free to give him my email address as I can at least give him some advise on how to conserve it so it keeps its historic value or if he is interested in selling to me or any one else. 


Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:24 pm ]
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Thanks for the info, Shawn.
It appears I erred in my assessment of the bridge.
It is a replacement; and not a tie bridge but a pin bridge.
I wonder how much that devalues the instrument....

One other interesting point: this instrument has been through a number of shops in the attempt to keep it playing. On the inside, as side reinforcement (I'm guessing) there is a thin blue tape placed vertically every so often. (Sound Spanish?) Also, the same tape runs parallel to the holly "spacer", running horizontally as obvious reinforcement on the inside of the instrument. My money is that d Lorca himself didn't put that in.

Steve



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