Official Luthiers Forum!

Okay, I'm looking at a possible archtop commission and being a person of average to below-average smarts I'm seeking the wisdom in the multitude of council that is the OLF...can I do this? Is a resume of a dozen acoustics and 1 electric solid body enough to pull this off? I also just sold off my big cabinet-making tools in preparation to move to a new home and shop...Paul W., and anyone else here making those nice archtops...help! If you say, "don't do it" I'll turn it down...I surely don't want to let the customer down...thanks guys and girls...

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

If you don't have it already, buy and read Benedetto's book. If you aren't scared at the end of that, I say give it a whirl :D BUT... I think I would build an archtop before I took a commission, and you should realize that it will take a good bit more work than a flattop guitar.

Larry buddy talk to Anthony Z about this and I am sure that he would be very happy to help you.  His archtops are fantastic so much so that I really want one.

Benedetto's book is great as Kevin said and really must reading for flat top builders too IMHO.

I vote yes, heck you can do it with one hand tied behind your back! Or get on the phone and have Nelson send you one in the white, and tell him to leave the headstock blank.   

I hear you on the fear thing, but don't you fly jets everyday?

I'll tell you what fear is. I went to Greenville Texas to meed a violinmaker. Turns out he was 19 and worked out of a dirt floor shop tin barn, 23 fiddles and counting at that time. Under his bed was THE COMMISSION, a partially assembled $8,000.00 cello.

To my amazement, he was building it without a mold, mmmmmhmmmmm. That's one commission that should have been passed.

But, Larry, if anyone on this forum can pull it off it's Y O U. Just give 'em the old money back warranty if not satisfied. What do you have to lose?

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I would be very hesitant to take a commision for a guitar that I had not built. I have done one acoustic archtop and was less than satisfied (it was not a commision but for myself). They are a completely different animal. I would not dream of puting my reputation on the line to do a guitar I am totally unfamiliar with so I reccomend not accepting it.
I built three prototypes (still have them too) of my ladder guitar before I sold one, but ya know, it's up to you.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Take the money and run Larry!   

    I've seen some of your work online, I absolutely know you can do it, and do it well if you want too!

      It's just, is this your ego telling you to build, or do you like archtops and want to get into them? I think you should ask the inner-Larry! Be honest with the Larry and everything will go well!

     If it helps, when I have these kinds of problems I stick my head in the dust collector and meditate. (with it off, of course. I'm weird, not stupid) It's very quite in there!!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Hey Larry, I have no doubt you CAN do it, the question is whether you SHOULD do it. Would you have wanted to sell your first acoustic flattop? Because in all honesty, your first archtop will have just as many flaws and the sound is uncharted waters for you.
And as Billy asked, is this somewhere you want to go? (archtops?) If so, then you owe it to yourself to build a few before building one for a client. Sure, take the commission but tell him you have a year waiting list. In that time, bang out a few archtops to see if they are your thing.
If you need any help, I'm happy to do what I can.

Larry, Well, you are running 6 to 1 in Favor of you building this baby.

It's a given you are for it, so I counted you as voting or you wouldn't have asked our opinions.

Pictures and remember, we're here for you.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Okay guys, thanks for the input...it's just what I needed...now,

Fuzz, Benedetto's book...I'll get it
Hesh, I'll put out an APB on Anthony Z
Bruce, you sure you met that guy in TX? Sounds like my new place in MS! And the jets are like breathing now...sort of a "controlled fear"
John, your point is well-taken and in light of Paul's comments I would need to point out to the customer that to avoid paying "tuition" for me to learn archtops he'd be better to wait for the 4th one to come out of the shop!
Billy, not ego, just a challenge...and NOW you tell me to leave the dust collector OFF when I stick my head in it!
Paul, how many archtops can I build in a year?!! Your year must have 730 days!! Really tho, you guys are right on the money...I'll probably try to cobble one together commission or no, just to see...who knows, maybe he'll wait around...if not I'll direct him to some of you experienced archtoppers! Thanks again for the quick and insightful replies!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

Larry, sounds to me like you want to build an archtop! If you can build a flattop, you can build an archtop.

Who is the client, a friend/colleague or someone you don't know well? Regardless, I'd be upfront with your prospective client and tell he/she that you haven't built one before. As Terry suggests build the guitar with an absolutely no obligation to purchase upon delivery or the ability to return the guitar in original condition after a two week trial period. Resist if you can adding any personalized features, i.e. initials, inlay of a mermaid or his dog rover..etc.

The Benedetto book is a great resource and a lot of the material included is handy for flattop builders. After reading the book cover to cover several times I still wasn't sure I could build one. After purchasing the videos I had the confidence to proceed.

I will help you any way I can as you proceed.     

Hi Larry,
As with any new instrument, it takes a couple(or more) to work the bugs out.
I find that certain things are actually easier building archtops than flattops.
One of the hardest parts for me has always been the neck/dovetail/body/top intersection-it all has to fit together at one time(perfectly).It can be a real challenge-even after many years of building them I routinely spend at least 6 hours getting the whole joint "perfect".
Everyone has a different way of carving the plates.
I use the Lancelot carver (chainsaw)to rough out the plates-WARNING-using this tool can be dangerous-proceed with extreme caution if you use it.
I also reccomend Bennedetto's book.
Please feel free to email or call me if you want any advice or help.
Here's a picture of one I made
Brad

Having in the past was in an mostly archtop shop, there are some things that go with this that are different from acoustic's and electric's. Bracing, voicing and getting good acoustic sound etc. te list can go on. I don't know about books or video's but wouln't hurt.
I agree with Anthony as to who this commission is for and what are the expectations of a paid for guitar. Sometimes even when persons are friends or relatives can be a potential problem when comes to money and products.

I would build one or more before commission, (but that is just me, and feel same with acoustic and electric's.) Build it and show to the person. If they like it they can then buy it. If not like it, you have an archtop. It could turn out a great instrument or the opposite. Build it, but not as a commission and then see where things go. You will at least get some hands on of doing one, that can never hurt.

If decide go with it as commission, and being up front with client, would stronly recommend try and keep it simple and not get into big appointments.

Good luck

I'm in the Paul Woolson, John How and the more conservative camp on this one. Archtops are special animals...just like flattops once were to you.

Imagine if you were a licensed MD and specialized in Orthopaedics. One of your patients comes to you complaining of chest pains and asks you to treat him. You may have all the anatomical and physiological knowledge of the area of the chest but you'd be lost as to the diagnostic and treatment protocols. Instead, as a professional, you would refer him to an expert.

I believe that as a professional guitarbuilder, you should also refer this customer to a specialist. I believe it's the professional thing to do. Who knows, you could receive a flattop referral from the archtop expert some day...or the customer might respect you even more for showing that you were looking out for his best interest and order a flattop...or refer a friend to you.

In the meantime, if you are interested in your archtop continuing education, go forth and build your first mistakes and either give them away or keep them for yourself. You'll know when you're ready to hang out the Archtop shingle.

Good luck, Larry!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Brad that guitar is a knock out!!!!!!

     Yeah! I was going to say the same thing Brad, very nice looking guitar! AT's are always so classy!

     I don't know if I would of stuck those wires out of the end of the headstock like that, but very, very, nice work!

    Larry, If Woolson and Z are going to hep ya? I'd go for it !!!

Take the commission!
Take the commission.... and sweat it out!!
I think we could all use some more stress in our lives :D]

     

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Larry, you might also want to invest in the Benedetto plans as well.

in the circumstances as you have described them, i would strongly recommend against accepting a commission for an archtop. as others have said, they are a very different beast, their construction might be considered as more akin to the violin family than the flat top guitar.

i would not consider it appropriate to charge for what is essentially a prototype.

now if the client is prepared to wait, and you have the time plus the resources and are prepared to build a half dozen to a dozen to learn what it takes to produce a professional sounding custom archtop, then it might be ok.

are you willing to do that?

I built my first archtop as a commission; for a friend. We had talked about it for a while, and one day the check showed up in the mail. He knew it might not work out, but had faith that my experience building other instruments, including a few violins, would result in something intersting, at least.

In the end he traded it off to his teacher, a well-known player in the Boston area, who used that instrument as his only acoustic for years. So it worked. It is, however, 'different' from most archtops, and he said it took him months to figure it out. When he did he sold off nine other instruments....

That said: there are a lot of things I would (and DO) do differently now. And better. If this person is serious, try to get them to wait for your second archtop; it will be a far better instrument than your first.

I feel that a Wagner Safe-T-Planer is indispensible for building arched instruments in a small shop. You can develop a contour map of the archings, and terrace off most of the waste in fairly short order. If you're careful, you can get very close to the final archings with only a little work after that. E-mail me if you have questions.

Of late I've been using 'curtate cycloid' cross arch profiles. It's an easy method for laying out the profiles, and makes a very 'sexy' shape that sounds good. I find since I started using them that all my previous work looks clumsy, and that most of the better makers are darn close to this shape, however they've learned to do it.

I tell my students that an archtop is three times the work of a flat top, and most of them find it to be true in the end, however skeptical they were to start out with. They're a different beast, to be sure, and something of an aquired taste. If you take up the challenge, be prepared for a long slog. My first one sounded _awful_ when I put the strings on it: I darn near threw it out in the snow. It sounded better the next day, so I'm glad I didn't. Be prepared for all sorts of suprises.

    

Oh geez... Well, I'm waiting to hear from him now, having told him of my reluctance to sell him AT # 1...I'm thinking I may try to work out a scenario where I attend a class with an experienced builder, bring # 1 home, and try out # 2 with the possibility of that one going to the customer...if at that time, he'd rather wait for # 3 or go elsewhere it's up to him...reminds me of the first ball-and-claw table commission I took back in the furniture days...took me 4 times as long to make the thing as it would now...and the results were much better on the last one!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

Larry my good friend the following is NOT directed at you but I wanted to bring this up even though it will be controversial to some.

I think that we all have a duty when approached by a prospective buyer of a custom, hand made instrument, to first and foremost put the prospective customer's needs beyond any desire that we may have to sell a guitar.  I'll add that this includes a duty to put the best face possible on the industry and endeavor to ensure that the customer has a very positive experience.

To me this means being willing to turn down business that we are not absolutely sure that we have the chops/experience to handle and provide an outstanding instrument.  It also means not jumping through hoops with our business models to try to match up what we can realistically provide with the prospective customers wishes.......

It has always bothered me, although I have never mentioned it here, that some will sell guitars for far less then what the industry standard might be because they lack experience......  Sorry, not trying to offend any one.  I also fully understand that the relationship with the prospective client will play into this too:  For example if a friend or a family member wants you to build for them and part of the attraction for them is that the guitar will be built by you - go for it.

But for customers who you do not know and who are expecting a level of expertise that you would expect from a stranger consider if you are doing them any favors in taking on the commission?

What I have done many times is recommend other builders to prospective customers.  These other builders are builders who I know have a better shot at providing real value and an outstanding instrument to the prospective customer then I do.

This supports our industry, the customer is placed first - always, and you may also find, as I have, that the builders that you send business to will be very grateful and willing to help you develop as a Luthier too.

For those of you who your goal is to sell your guitars don't you think that it makes absolute sense to not pee in the canteen along the way and participate in a low pricing/lack of experience activity that damages your industry and your own ability in time to get a decent price for your guitars?

A well made guitar from a Luthier represents real value and will be far superior, IMHO, to the vast majority of available, off-the-wall, new factory instruments.  Luthiers deserve to be able to get top dollar for their efforts and so to will anyone who gets to this level through hard work and a record building successful guitars.

Now, so how do new builders gain the insight of customer feedback?  Lots of ways including donating guitars to musicians who play a great deal.  Sell a few to friends or family along the way too but be sure to encourage honesty in the evaluation of your instruments or you will receive no benefit from the effort.

Lastly being offered a commission for an instrument that you do not build and may not have intended to build is like being offered french fries when you want onion rings......  A bargain is not a bargain unless it is what you wanted in the first place.  Consider if a guitar from any of us is really a good deal for the prospective customer when some of us may lack the chops or experience with a particular style of instrument to provide real value and an outstanding instrument to the customer.

Also - for me, if asked to build something that I was not thrilled about building I would simply refer the person to someone else.  Why?  Again because I lack the chops and experience in that instrument and I also don't need the diversion from what I really love doing and that is building the kinds of guitars that you see me building.  And again, and important - you will be supporting our industry and putting the customer first.

Thanks.

Well spoken Hesh! That really is the "thing" here with this potential customer...okay, you guys are right...I probably "can" do it but "should" I do it...when I tried to direct him to other luthiers he said he liked what I'd done with the flat tops, liked the sound and playability of the one he tried and just wanted an archtop...that's when the idea of sending me to a class to raise my comfort level (which is presently a 6 out of ten that I can build the thing eventually)...but really my concern (9 out of ten)here is that he'll have gone thru all of this and come out on the other side with regrets which is the LAST thing that I want! Of course, I may just end up saying, "no, I'm not your guy" and risking the possibility that he'll tell his friends that I'm a jerk...I suppose I've been called worse for less than this, but you know what I'm saying...

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

Larry buddy I am an expert at being called a jerk......

I wanted to add that this guys attraction to your work is an honor that you have earned by building excellent guitars - be proud my friend!

Larry, not to change the subject, but are you really moving to Mississippi?

Back to the Money Back Satisfaction Guarantee.

Really the guy isn't out a dime if he doesn't like the product.

By-Product, Larry built his first Archtop and it's laying around collecting dust.

By-Product #2 Larry is no longer building his first archtop.

Wrinkle: Add to the Money Back Guarantee, a chance at trading Archtop #1 for Archtop #2, Gratis.

The Ark was built by amateurs and so it goes that man only gets ahead when he sticks his neck out.

Larry, you have my respect.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com