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BlackHeart
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:50 am 
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Does anyone here use the Ibex or similar binding tool and hand cut (without router) the binding channels? Im looking at a German made deal, as seen in Cumplianos book. Just wondering if you cut the big channel first, and then cut the smaller one for the perfling, or what order you do it in, how  you like the tools etc. Anyone have one of those German deals? 


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Alan Carruth
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:30 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Most of the marking gauges that you can use for this register off the side, and are most accurate if the side has not been cut away at the edge. When I have hand cut the rabbets I have found it better to cut the purfling rabbet first, and then the binding ledge. Usually you don't need to mark the top/back surface for the binding cut, just remove the side wood until you hit the liners. Thus, you can make one mark on the top/back surface for the purfling, and then two on the sides: one close to the top/back surface for the purfling and another, lower down, for the binding itself. I do most of the actual stock removal with a sharp chisel: it typically takes a couple of days. Obviously, I avoid that whenever possible.


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sharp_custom
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:22 am 
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I made my first three instruments using a similar tool. It's a pretty nice tool. I still use it to bind F-style mandolins. Although it is very satisfying, this method is very frustrating and time consuming. That's why I switched to a router setup. Good luck and relax. It'll work out better than if you are stressed about it.

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Evan Heisler
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I am facing this decision also. I was thinking of getting the Schneider gramil from LMI. My building area is...well, a kitchen table, so I try to minimize the use of wood eater tools, plus I enjoy the quiet. But after using the popsicle stick, exacto blade, and chisel to cut the rosette, I am thinking binding ledges is something I may want help with from the router. I am curious to here more opinions about these little tools.
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FishtownMike
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:41 am 
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When i do my first i'm thing of using a hand cutter. i love power tools but I also love hand work. I have the cupiano book but i don't recall the cutter he used. been a while since i read it but i'll check it out when i get home later. I have a german made brass cutter i picked up some where online don't remember where It's meant for violin purfing but i think it will work well for a guitar.. heres a pic

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TonyFrancis
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:00 am 
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I like to use two grammils from LMI and a sharp chisel. Im looking forward to seeing what treats lie nielsen have in their upcomming inlay tool kit due for release this month.
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DP LaPlante
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:17 am 
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 I used the IBEX purfling cutter from Stew Mac to hand cut the binding/purfling channels at the Romanillos course this past summer. It comes with two very nicely ground blades that are opposite to one another so that you can set up the tool for left/right push/pull use. , Jose' instructed us to use this to essentially mark and delineate the cut. Most of the work was done with a narrow chisel.  


Even he (a consumate hand craftsman) conceded that the router is far quicker and more efficient for this task. It was quite satisfying to do it (once) with the hand tools, and, I can see the advantage if you are limited to working in a space where the use of the router would be a problem. But other than that, I can see no advantage to doing it this way.   


 
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FishtownMike
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I do own power tools including a router and laminate router trimmer. I'm sure the router is much faster and easier but i find using hand tools relaxing and satisfying. I'm not ruling the router out all together. I believe Cumpianos method involved marking then hand chiseling too. i believe this is the way they all did in the days before power tools.

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Sam Price
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:47 am 
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Yeah, I use an Ibex purfling cutter. Most of my work is done at night, and I can't make a noise with the kiddies all tucked up in bed.

I do have a laminate router at home and do use it for other luthiery jobs, where cutting a truss rod channel would otherwise be difficult by hand. I can afford to use the ibex cutter- I'm a hobby guitar builder and this is therapy for me. As always I am willing to modify technique if demand started to grow, but as I don't have any intentions to sell, I'll stick with the Ibex.


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Colin S
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:39 am 
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I often use a gramil (I use both types) and chisels to cut the binding and purfling channels, though on most guitars now I use the router.

I've just use the gramil and chisel on a classical I'm building completely with hand tools, and although not as fast as a router in a F/W rig, it doesn't in fact take much longer to do if you factor in setup time.

As to the order of cutting, I make both of the gramil cuts on the top first with a marker cut on the sides at binding depth, then chisel the binding channel, followed by the purfling channel. On the back it's just a binding channel cut.

Colin

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joelThompson
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:28 am 
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I am another brit that likes the purfling cutter,i have an ibex.

If i do use a router i will use my dremel to do the hard but score the
channels with the purfling cutter first to avoid chip out etc.

Joel
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BlackHeart
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:38 am 
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Great, thanks for all the input. Is the Ibex as adjustable as the German made deal? They both cost the same.



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DP LaPlante
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:43 am 
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The Ibex is easily adjustable with two allen screws. I found it useful to leave the second blade in (reversed and tucked in flush) as a spacer which made the adjustments even quicker and easier.


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BlackHeart
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[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]The Ibex is easily adjustable with two allen screws. I found it useful to leave the second blade in (reversed and tucked in flush) as a spacer which made the adjustments even quicker and easier. [/QUOTE]


 


Yea, but the German one has those knobs you just turn by hand. And a wood pick for cleaning out the channel, And its al brass I think. Pretty cool  for the same price , not sure if it has 2 blades? But I would not need them anyway for guitar...
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WaddyThomson
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I'm gonna use the one I made.  Hope it works. 

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DP LaPlante
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:44 pm 
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From the pics I think that the Ibex looks easier to hold on to....control is everything when you use it.......
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Arnt Rian
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:58 pm 
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I used a home made cutter based on the one in Irving Sloane's book for my first instruments. The distance between the cutter and indexing pin are determined by the number of tin shims that you put there... I ground a bevel on a jig saw blade for a cutter. The tool works well enough, but as has been mentioned, it is basically a scoring tool, not a tool for actually cutting the binding rabbet. A really sharp cutter and the right grip are also important; the cutter wants to follow grain lines in spruce, so you have to have a steady hand yet a light touch.

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BlackHeart
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:39 am 
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Well, the German deal is on ebay, I got mine for a good price plus shipping. You can back search and see how low they went foir, bid low if you want one. Id use it for scoring even if I used a router. 


These are fine adjustable with the knobs, and are designed to do it all, not just scoring. The German one is probably a basic 100+ year old design.


Kinkead also likes the hand tool he made himself. This thing better have a single edge bevel!



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Marc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:04 am 
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I hand cut binding channels around the areas close to the neck and heel (classicals), also some at the tail. I use two lmi's and two sloane's one each set for side and top and a thin paring chisel. I find the lmi to be a more stable gramil, it doesn't tend to rock as much, but the sloane gets in tighter to the heel.

I've never seen the german one on ebay, looks like good quality, I just bought two, we'll see.






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Sam Price
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:11 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

From the picsA I think that the Ibex looks easier to hold on to....control is everything when you use it.......

[/QUOTE]

With all things in life, the sharper the blades are, the more control you have.
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FishtownMike
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:21 am 
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[QUOTE=BlackHeart]

Well, the German deal is on ebay, I got mine for a good price plus shipping. You can back search and see how low they went foir, bid low if you want one. Id use it for scoring even if I used a router. 


These are fine adjustable with the knobs, and are designed to do it all, not just scoring. The German one is probably a basic 100+ year old design.


Kinkead also likes the hand tool he made himself. This thing better have a single edge bevel!

[/QUOTE]
I have this and it is a well built heavy solid cutter.

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TonyFrancis
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:27 am 
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Is that a blue spruce paring chisel? Super!
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Marc
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[QUOTE=TonyFrancis] Is that a blue spruce paring chisel? Super![/QUOTE]

Yes it is, special order, I had to wait a month but it was worth it.
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WaddyThomson
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What size?  I have a 2mm paring chisel.  Is that small enough?

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Marc
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[QUOTE=WaddyT] What size?  I have a 2mm paring chisel.  Is that small enough?
[/QUOTE]

I like 2mm (or smaller, lmi has 1mm) for a channel near a classical heel and neck because it's about the width of the sides ~.080". Where there is room I prefer a wider blade -- more stiff and easier to sharpen.

My blue spruce is wider than 2mm, it was a special order not because of the width but because they don't normally make paring chisels, at least not when I ordered it over a year ago.


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