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Buyer’s Preconceptions/Misconceptions
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=15037		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:27 am ]
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At the risk of lighting off some fireworks, this should provide some good discussion. I also thought this might be a good thread for Jacques-Andre to go along with the other Montreal festival questions.

 

In general, steel string guitar buyers seem better educated than they were when I started building 12 years ago but I have run into a few common beliefs that range from blatant misconceptions to debatable issues. Where this may become contentious is that some of these common beliefs probably start with builders. I'm not trying to pick any fights but I am curious and would love to know what other people's pet peeves are, where buyers preconceptions are concerned.

 

The ones that currently bug me the most, not necessarily in order are:

 

-Putting a humidifier in your guitar or case is always helpful.

 (I got a guitar back with a complaint of high action, early summer, RH outside and in about 55%, humidifier in the case)

 

-If the action is high, the truss rod needs adjusting.

 


-Domed tops are a modern engineering development in the guitar world.

 

and it's corollary,

 

-Flat tops are archaic, inferior, and doomed to fail.

 

-Tight grain is always superior to wide grain in top wood.

 

-"Master Grade" wood sounds better than lower grades.

 

-Guitars with Cedar tops don't sound better with age.

 

Did I miss any?
Author:  DP LaPlante [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:37 am ]
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Yes:


-If it's not Adirondack Spruce it's poop.


-If it's not Brazilian Rosewood it's poop.


-If it is Brazilian rosewood and it cracks it's your (the luthier's ) fault.


........and the ones you already mentioned.................
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:47 am ]
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Also

a specific wood provides a specific tone characteristic

Indian Rosewood is boring

Shellac finishes are too soft
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:50 am ]
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Great topic Kent!

I'll add a few:

- Mahogany is a lesser quality/sounding wood associated with "cheap" guitars.........

- The player's entire frame of reference when evaluating a guitar consists of only three brands:  martin, Martin, and MARTIN.......

- Very low action without buzzing is desirable and obtainable instead of the player learning how to actually play a guitar.........
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:37 am ]
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One I've heard lately (and from the guys who work and sell at the guitar store, WHO SHOULD KNOW) is that any finish other than nitro kills the tone of a guitar.
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:43 am ]
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You can tell the quality of a guitar by how long the harmonics sustain.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:06 am ]
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I often think back to how much I thought I knew about guitars before I
started building and how most of it was wrong. There's a fine line between
insulting a client and explaining a misconception. I just try to smile and
throw out the facts as best I know them and let them make up their own
mind. I would have to say that most of the folks I've worked with so far have
been respectful of my opinion and fun to work with. I've probably learned
as much from them as they have from me. The 'Adirondak-all else is crap"
thing does bug me though.
Terry


Author:  KenH [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:11 am ]
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Opinions on strings seem to abound as well.


One opinion that irks me is that "if it isnt a dreadnaught, it's not a guitar"


One potential customer was so impressed with the tight grains of the WRC top on one of my guitars, he didnt care to even play some of the other, better sounding guitars I had on hand at the time.


Another one is a herringbone guitar is always better than any other.
Author:  David R White [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:21 pm ]
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A little off topic, but for years I thought if you took all the strings off a guitar at the same time you would screw it up.

There I've said it...somehow I feel clean coming out with that.
Author:  Parser [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:32 pm ]
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I'm not one for voodoo tone theories, but I have to admit that I believe this one. I can attest to the fact that a semi-hollow electric with a nitro finish will ring out more than the same guitar with a poly finish.

[QUOTE=Bob Garrish] One I've heard lately (and from the guys who work and sell at the guitar store, WHO SHOULD KNOW) is that any finish other than nitro kills the tone of a guitar.[/QUOTE]
Author:  SniderMike [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:49 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Hesh] - Very low action without buzzing is desirable and
obtainable instead of the player learning how to actually play a
guitar.........
[/QUOTE]

Hesh, I'm not sure I follow you on that one??? I'm perhaps
misunderstanding, but isn't low action without buzzing indeed desirable
and obtainable? I don't see the connection with learning to play, other
than it's easier to learn to play a guitar with good action!
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:50 pm ]
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A little off topic, but for years I thought if you took all the strings off a guitar at the same time you would screw it up.


Yep, that one is still around. Maybe I shouldn't post this on line but I hope he won't mind. I took a 3 day repair workshop from Frank Ford about 10 years ago. He emphasized efficiency in doing set up work. One of the things he showed us to speed things up is how to get the strings off fast. Wrap one hand around the neck holding the strings to prevent backlash. Without taking tension off, cut the strings with wire cutters just behind the nut.


So far, I've only had one client I was comfortable enough with to do that in front of them.
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:43 pm ]
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[QUOTE=drwhite]A little off topic, but for years I thought if you took all the strings off a guitar at the same time you would screw it up.



There I've said it...somehow I feel clean coming out with that.[/QUOTE]

Wow - do the strings actually come off?????  Sorry I have a bad reputation for never changing strings......  I have a PRS C-24 10 top from 1997 with the original strings......

Mike what I mean is that players believe at times that they can have very low action with out possible buzzing.  Although I know that this is possible too it is also possible, if not likely, that very low action will create some buzzing somewhere.  If you check out Buffalo Brothers site, a major California dealer, their shop manager has a great article that he wrote about this topic.  His conclusion is that players need to learn to play a guitar with low action and no buzzing and stop crying for VERY low action and no buzzing.
Author:  MikeP [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:30 pm ]
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low action....bleh...I once about offed a repairman who I had dress my frets and, even after I had specifically said 'don't do it', he lowered my action to what HE thought was good....!@#$%^&*()...I am a very aggressive player with very strong hands/fingers (I can break an egg in the palm of either hand) and I NEED a high action ....


Author:  SniderMike [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:36 pm ]
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Gotcha, Hesh. And I certainly did not mean to imply that everyone
desires a low action.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:02 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Parser] I'm not one for voodoo tone theories, but I have to admit that I believe this one. I can attest to the fact that a semi-hollow electric with a nitro finish will ring out more than the same guitar with a poly finish.

[QUOTE=Bob Garrish] One I've heard lately (and from the guys who work and sell at the guitar store, WHO SHOULD KNOW) is that any finish other than nitro kills the tone of a guitar.[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]

Yes, but are both guitars professionally, properly finished with the same film thickness?

Modern polys are harder than nitro, not higher damping, but are far too often applied very thick, for no reason.
Author:  Sam Price [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:32 am ]
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[QUOTE=MichaelP] Also

a specific wood provides a specific tone characteristic

Indian Rosewood is boring

Shellac finishes are too soft[/QUOTE]

Absolutely AMEN to that. I was rebuked for liking EI Rosewood, because it's a "beginner's wood", and "common both in tone and characteristic"...(????????)

Also, the French Polished Cittern I have sitting here with me seems to have a finish as tough as anything. I have been very pleasantly surprised- providing I don't spill beer on it....
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:44 am ]
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I agree Sam, my French polished L-OO holds up well when I play it and drool..........
Author:  Parser [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:07 am ]
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[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] [QUOTE=Parser] I'm not one for voodoo tone theories, but I have to admit that I believe this one. I can attest to the fact that a semi-hollow electric with a nitro finish will ring out more than the same guitar with a poly finish.

[QUOTE=Bob Garrish] One I've heard lately (and from the guys who work and sell at the guitar store, WHO SHOULD KNOW) is that any finish other than nitro kills the tone of a guitar.[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]

Yes, but are both guitars professionally, properly finished with the same film thickness?

Modern polys are harder than nitro, not higher damping, but are far too often applied very thick, for no reason.[/QUOTE]

Yep, and I'm talking higher numbers than just 2 guitars and all of them professionally finished. You're right that the poly is sprayed on thicker than Nitro...but isn't that how you spray poly? I've never really heard of anyone intentionally spraying poly at nitro thicknesses (I do have limited knowledge of finish).



Author:  SimonF [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:39 am ]
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Parser,
All finishes should be put on as a very thin film. In my experience (and I
have had direct comparisons using my guitars), French Polish sounds the
best. Mostly because, I put the shellac on thinner (0.003" thick or less)
than I can with the other finishes. French Polish feels a little more alive
and vibrant; however, the difference isn't substantial but is just barely
noticeable. I have been able to directly compare two similar guitars -
both were sprayed by Tony Ferguson and one was a Nitro finish and the
other was a catalyzed urethane finish. I was previously using Nitro
before I switched to Tony and wanted to have a comparison between the
two finishes to make sure that the urethane was as good.

Both finishes were under 0.005" thick and they both sounded equally
good.

In my opinion, thinner is better and as long as a suitable finish is applied
correctly - any tonal differences will not be substantial enough to even
bother with. That is why I am sticking with the more modern finishes -
they feel better than nitro and are much more durable.


Author:  Bob Garrish [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:15 am ]
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Poly can be/is sprayed thinner because it's harder. It can also be sprayed thicker because it doesn't shrink and check like nitro.

The 'thick plastic finish' rep of poly can be tacked on to the list of misconceptions.
Author:  Parser [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:30 am ]
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Duly noted...thanks for the info!

I guess most manufacturers spray it thick for leveling purposes?
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