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| What do you use to silence trussrod http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=15054 |
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| Author: | GregG [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:26 pm ] |
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Hello Everyone, I was wondering what is your product of choice to silence a potential trussrod vibration. I've got a guitar where plucking a B or high E string really hard creates a metallic sounding "sitar" noise...not sure it's the trussrod vibrating but it sure sounds like it, any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions would be appreciated. I know it could have been a nut or saddle problem but I've messed with both enough to feel confident it's neither. Thanks, Greg |
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| Author: | AndrewGribble [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:29 pm ] |
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does the noise occur on open and fretted notes? |
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| Author: | GregG [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:49 pm ] |
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Dang Andrew, I knew that would be the first question....I know, I know, it seems to happen on open notes only, must be the nut, right! but geez it seems perfect. Okay, if it seems logical to check the nut(again), what problems could one attribute to this "sitar" noise relative to the nut....I'm all ears on this one!! Greg |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:58 pm ] |
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Nut, frets, setup in general. That's your problem, not the truss rod. Make sure the frets are level, the nut is not too low and is back-filed properly, and work on the setup. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:04 pm ] |
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What kind of truss rod? Sometimes if it's loose you can hear a rattle when you tap the neck. Did it change with tightening or loosening? I fixed a rattling TRSD by injecting rubber cement into the slot via holes in the fretboard per Frank Ford. It worked great. I've been putting caulk in the slot since when installed but now I'm going to use the Blanchard technique of a wood filler strip. Make sure your nut slots are slanted so the string only bears on the leading edge. That's a possibility too. Terry |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:10 pm ] |
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Whoops, David gave the definitive answer while I was typing. I'm sure he's right on the money as usual. Let us know what fixed it. Terry |
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| Author: | GregG [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:30 pm ] |
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Man I hope it is the setup, but the frets are level, the nut is not too low, the slots are angled back toward the headstock....I guess I'll just cut a new nut and see what happens, beats the stuffing out of the other options. David, can you tell me how you "Back File" the nut, just a straight angle cutback toward the headstock approx 8 degrees? Thanks Gents, Greg |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:39 pm ] |
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By back-file, I'm simply referring to ensuring the proper angle of the slot rather than cutting it flat- pretty much what you described.. If the buzz goes away when you fret, the problem is with the nut. Either the slot is too deep, too wide, angle too shallow, or too steep. When you play an open note and hear the rattle, stick a blade, scale, anything thin enough to fit in to the nut slot. If the buzz stops when you push on the string within the nut toward the front edge, it's probably not back-filed steeply enough. If the buzz goes away when you push or hold the string at the back edge or behind the nut, the slot angle is probably too steep. If doesn't go away until you fret at the first fret, then your slot is just cut too deep. If the neck were too straight you would likely still get some rattle at least in the first few frets. How do you judge your nut slot height? |
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| Author: | GregG [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:49 pm ] |
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Thanks David, I'll do some tests per your instructions, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that is for sure, I've never had any problems with a nut before, I hope this is the problem. Greg |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:12 am ] |
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Brilliant David - man people from Ann Arbor are smart!  Must be those brownies......Greg buddy I had something like this happen before and it ended up being flat spots on the saddle. I am sure David is correct here but if you check and have any flats on the saddle on the afflicted strings perhaps resolve that first. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:33 am ] |
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[QUOTE=fmorelli]Greg, Typically if it doesn't quiet down after I've asked once or twice, I send my truss rod to its room with no dinner.   
(where WaddyT when you need him  )
Filippo[/QUOTE] Filippo water boarding works well too |
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| Author: | Glen H [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:17 am ] |
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I check the nut for sitar sound by loosening the string and putting a very small piece of notebook paper under the string and tuning back up. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:46 am ] |
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[QUOTE=fmorelli]Greg, Typically if it doesn't quiet down after I've asked once or twice, I send my truss rod to its room with no dinner.
(where WaddyT when you need him )
Filippo[/QUOTE] Truss Rod, I ain't got no stinkin Truss Rod!   |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:36 am ] |
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Greg, we had a bizarre experience here with a buzzing guitar once. A friend brought his over, which was rattling maddeningly. He drilled holes in the neck, injected some silicone caulk, the works. Still buzzed. He was pulling out his hair. Turned out, when played, that if you grabbed the tuner buttons, the buzz stopped. These were Gibson-esque tuners, with keystone buttons, which were loose on their shafts. A few quick drops of super glue on the shaft, and all was well. He's buzz free now, but still has the three plugs on the back side of his neck as a souvenir. The moral of this story is: it just might not be your T/R. Good luck, Steve |
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| Author: | MarkW [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:28 am ] |
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Greg, Have you tried placing a wrench and some slight pressure on the truss rod adjustment nut while plucking the open strings? I once had an acoustic in the shop that produced a similar buzz. The only thing I could isolate it to was the truss rod adjustment nut lightly touching wood where it passed through the clearance hole. Removing a little material for additional clearance took care of it. Usually it is something on the tuners. |
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| Author: | martinedwards [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:01 am ] |
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+1 on the 1/8 turn of the truss rod to make sure that it's not just rattling loose in the slot. I have a strat that I don't play much but when I last brought it out, that was EXACTLY the problem. another possible culprit in an acoustic is at the other end. the last doubleneck I made had a buzz on one of the 12s. tore a bunch of hair out trying to find it..... turned out to be one of the strings was 1/4" proud of the bridgeplate INSIDE the guitar. the double wound end of the string was bound in the slot so it didn't slip and detune, but that little bit waggled enough to buzz on certain notes. strings loosened, pin pulled, string straightened, pin replaced, back up to tune, all better |
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| Author: | FishtownMike [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:21 am ] |
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[QUOTE=GregG] Man I hope it is the setup, but the frets are level, the nut is not too low, the slots are angled back toward the headstock....I guess I'll just cut a new nut and see what happens, beats the stuffing out of the other options. David, can you tell me how you "Back File" the nut, just a straight angle cutback toward the headstock approx 8 degrees? Thanks Gents, Greg[/QUOTE] Fill the nut with bone dust some CA or crazy glue and recut the slot. Easier then cutting a new nut. I learned that trick on here. 
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| Author: | GregG [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:31 am ] |
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Thanks for all of the suggestions, I'll check them all out and report back with my findings. Greg |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:24 pm ] |
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Quick note - all the suggestions so far are very good. Tuners are a rattle problem that is often overlooked, as Steve mentioned. I honestly couldn't count the times I've seen people searching everywhere for a rattle, never looking at the tuner washers, or occasionally the buttons (common on Fender basses). I don't even think about it anymore, and automatically grab my 10mm socket wrench to snug up the tuners whenever I take strings off. Ball ends inside an acoustic are another very common one as Martin mentioned. The big hurdle with things like these is that the sound always travels, and almost inevitably sounds like it's coming from the opposite end of the instrument. After a while you just kind of learn to recognize the timbre of different rattles and buzzes quite reliably though. However, it was specifically your use of the word "sitar" that makes me doubt any of these causes, or that of the truss rod. Describing the sound of a rattle or buzz is often very difficult to articulate, but comparing it to a sitar is very revealing. I'm really betting that your nut slots are just too low. That's why I was curious as to how you were measuring their height. People have different ways, the most reliable being viewing the clearance at the first fret when fretted past the second. If you happened to be measuring nut height with some scale with the string open, there are oodles of other variables that can give you inaccurate readings. If it's not too low, then I'd still guess it involves the angle of the slot. Those nut related buzzes are just the peculiar ones that agree with your sitar-like description. My money's still on too low though. |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:14 pm ] |
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Hi Greg, hope you are doing well. I happen to have a sitar handy which might bring some insight. Here's a picture of its bridge(s), which give it its signature sound. The strings are anchored at the bottom of the long, very slightly sloped bridge. If a string is sounding like a sitar, I'd look at where the string meets the bone either at the nut or the saddle: 
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:04 am ] |
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Here is another option that no one has mentioned .. the nut slot may have a bit of a bugle shaped end to the slot, facing the first fret .. thus when the open string is played the string vibrates in the bugle end, and sounds like a sitar ... I have had this happen to me many a time early on in my repair career - you need to keep the nut file dead straight as you pass thru the slot while deepening it. If you wobble it side to side this can sometimes happen - can be fixed by a couple more solid strokes. |
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| Author: | GregG [ Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:54 am ] |
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I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who offered thoughts/suggestions relative to this problem I encountered. I was so sure it was not the nut causing the problem....David's confidence that it was got my attention, well a quick little test this morning and without question it is the nut, I no longer have a "sitar" but a beautiful sounding guitar...YAHOO!!! Cheers, Greg |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:12 am ] |
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Great news! David rules! He's a real diamond on this forum eh? Terry |
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