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Jody
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:31 am 
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  o.k. I just read an article by a guitar builder on their site ( names not important) which stated  " all adirondack spruce is red spruce , but not all red spruce is adirondack spruce " o.k. the statement is true since red spruce grown in virginia  would certainly not be adirondack spruce ...  the strongly implied inference is that  adirondack red spruce is superior guitar wood to  red spruce grown in other areas ! Does anyone have an experienced opinion on this ? thanks Jody
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tippie53
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:23 am 
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   That is indeed a very true statement. True Adirondack is rare to say the least. Red spruce of which Adirondack is a species of grows in the north east. Adi is often very white in color with a varying grain. The wood has some of the highest strength to weight ratios. I have used both and use Adi as often as I can. Red spruce can vary by species but   is still a terrific tone wood . Most of the is often red spruce and not true adi. Know your source.'        &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;   
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BlackHeart
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:41 am 
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Well, what exactly is the quality of red spruce grown in Virginia? I was looking at some red spruce tops. I would like that old tyme Adi-Martin sound on the dred I want to build. Does Red have the same amount of 'headroom'?  


 


Thx.
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Hesh
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:51 am 
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It's the bear urine....... just kidding.......

What John said.

Adi is IMHO the best top tonewood of all the spruces that I have tried to date.  I always brace with it as well.  It is also very difficult to get with homogeneous cosmetics but who cares - tone is everything.

When you build with it expect that the time that it takes for the guitar to start to open up will be longer then other woods.  But the wait is worth it.
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Hesh
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Oh and it costs more and is even more difficult to get in wider sizes.  Typically what you will receive for say a dread will require some careful jointing because the pieces are barely wide enough.

And lastly to me, when I fondle a piece of it (no jokes please.....) it feels harder as well and not soft and fuzzy like some spruces.
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Alexandru Marian
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How about average weight? I imagine somewhere between sitka and engelman?

Good for classicals?




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BlackHeart
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Ok, thanks Hesh. Almost got a chunk of nice red, but I held out, whew, Im sure its nice though.
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Hesh
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You are very welcome Blackheart.

Alex unfortunately I have never done a weight study of different tops that are exactly the same size/thickness.  Perhaps someone else has and will help us out here?
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DP LaPlante
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To be concise:


There are three species of spruce that grow in the Adirondacks, Red, White and Black. They are so similar that only botanists can tell them apart, though their habitats are different. Red Spruce is also referred to as "Adirondack" though it grows in the east all along the Appalachian chain from Maine to the Carolinas.


Years ago at Mike Longworth's request I did some research at the NY State Library here in Albany to see if I could find a record of a company that was llisted in the Martin records as a supplier of Spruce. No dice.....in truth I'm not aware of any bona fide information that proves that Martin sourced their wood in the Adirondacks. Red Spruce for sure...Adirondack, who knows?? 
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Jody
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  Thanks guys I appreciate all of you weighing in here ! DP that is very interesting ... i wonder if martin  guitar co  still has the record of whom they purchased the wood from .? jody
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Jody
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  DP ? ( here I go hi-jacking my own thread !  LOL ) are you still in albany?  I live in the newburgh area , about 90 miles south of albany, on the hudson . Jody
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DP LaPlante
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Yes!
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KenH
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It stands to reason that in the pre-war era, Martin would use woods from the area surrounding the plant. Since transportation was not what it is now, I would think that they would use all materials that were fairly easy to get to keep the costs down. To me, this would mean that they sourced spruce from the PA area and the adirondacks.  I'm still not too sure about it actually being "red" spruce. If so, I doubt that it was ONLY red spruce. I believe it would have been a blend of all good quality spruce from the surrounding area of the plant in Bethlehelm.


I also have to think that because of the popularity of "red adirondack spruce", there may be people around that are selling other spruce and calling it red spruce or adirondack spruce in order to get the higher price it brings.


Advice given on this forum to know your supplier and make sure you can trust his woods and word is some extremely good advice.


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Matt Gage
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Hey Jody, your question reminds me of one of my favorite articles.

Back in 1984, Eric Schoenberg and Dana Bourgeois interviewed C.F.Martin III. Originally the interview was to focus on the OM model guitar, but soon focused on the sources for adirondack red spruce.

It turns out that Martin bought their Red spruce from many different areas of the country and even Mr.Martin was unwilling to call it Adirondack spruce.

It seems that he perferred to use Red Spruce to discribe it as some of it came from as far west as Ohio, and south as North Carolina. They did`nt care where it came from, as much as they cared about the quality of the wood.

From what I underdstand, most of the true Adirondack was decimated during world war 1, so it was fairly difficult to find sources even back in the late 30`s.

This article can be found on page 37 of the Guild of American Luthiers big red book volume II.
sorry, i cant seem to find a way to link you to the article.

Shortly after that interview, Dana B. cut some Red Spruce in Maine that is spectacular. I am fortunate to have few of those tops and some of the brace wood from that tree, and I am saving for a really special build, which is a different story.

Matt
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Jody
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   cool ! thanks matt ! I just happen to have a copy of  that red book!    Jody
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spruce
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:31 am 
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"Red spruce of which Adirondack is a species of grows in the north
east."

Well, that's like saying that true Sitka only grows near Sitka, which isn't
the case....
Adirondack ain't a "species". It's just another poorly chosen popular
name that gained popularity....

"Advice given on this forum to know your supplier and make sure you
can trust his woods and word is some extremely good advice."

Well, the problem is that when a supplier buys a log in a NE mill, it's
difficult to determine--without foilage--whether it's Picea glauca or
Picea rubens...

And you certainly can't tell from the wood itself....

Yeah, occasionally you'll find some sap pockets on a Picea rubens
log
that you can pop in your mouth to determine species, but that ain't
always the case....

So-oo, yeah, there's a lot of Picea glauca out there masquerading as
"Red", both in modern and vintage instruments....

"I also have to think that because of the popularity of "red adirondack
spruce", there may be people around that are selling other spruce and
calling it red spruce or adirondack spruce in order to get the higher price
it brings."

Well, it's not only North American suppliers that may or may not be falsely
supplying "Red". I know of a couple European suppliers who have made
some pretty outrageous claims of Picea rubens growing in the
Carpathians......

It didn't help that the stuff looked exactly like "Red", with typical
uneven graining and incredible stiffness....   


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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:55 am 
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I got three "styles" of spruce from a Russian, Leonid Rybakoff several years ago. They'd come from the Circassian Mountains, the Caucasus, and from central Russia. I believe they were all Picea albies..."German" spruce, though there are other piceas growing in Russia.   One flavor looked dead nuts like "Adirondack" and had the fabulous stiffness and hardness that goes with it.   I decided that that was "Red Russian" spruce.   The stuff that looked very plain, white, and even...more like good "German"...I decided would be called "White Russian".   Then the other was kind of funky with some gray streaks in it.   Good tap tone, fine stiffness, and so I called it "Black Russian."   The Nemiroff pepper vodka that Leonid sent me went well with all three spruces, and they all wound up in nice guitars...
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tippie53
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:55 am 
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    In the martin history , Like Dave LaPlante discussed Martin asked suppliers for spruce for tops. I had an opportunity to talk to a Mr Trach I am not sure of his first name but he was a plant manager at Martin about the same time Dave was talking about.
About all I could get out of him was at the time when they need spruce that is what they asked for and they gave specs to the size and were not too species oriented.
   There are things about the history that may never be truely known and obscured. I have seen old martin guitars that the bracing is not quartered yet they still sound great.
    Today the vintage guitar market has been created by the collector and alot of older baby boomers. I am sure Dave knows alot more of this than I and I hope that he can shed more light on this interesting subject
   


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Alan Carruth
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:06 am 
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I've been testing my wood as it comes in for the past several years. So far, all of the 'Red' spruce I've tested had been in the high density/high Young's modulus part of the chart. It varies a lot, of course: I've got one 'Red' top that is an exact match for a Western Red Cedar top in my stash in terms of density, and stiffness both along and across the grain.

If you're looking to make a top that is as light as possible, while still being stiff enough to take the string tension, you probably want to look at a wood that has lower density. This is one reason most classical makers don't use much 'red' spruce, prefering Euro, which tends to be a little less dense, or WRC or Englemann, which tend to be even lower in density. Obviously, there are other things that are important in a guitar.   

'Red' spruce does tend to be quite tough; more so than some of the lighter woods. It also seems to have low damping; it dissipates less energy as it vibrates than many spruces. In this it's more like WRC or Redwood, perhaps. 'Red' also tends to have a higher cross grain stiffness than Sitka, being more like Euro in that regard.

In fact, I'd guess that's one of the reasons Martin settled on it. Aside from being available, it had properties that were close to the European wood old C.F. I learned on, particularly if you spent some time picking out the lower density stuff.   
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DarrenW
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How would ya'll compare Lutz to Adi Spruce in terms of tone (I know I know...subjective subject) and/or physical properties?
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KenH
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I just finished my firswt 2 guitars with Lutz. One of these guitars is the best guitar I have ever played. The other is a good one, but nothing like the other. Overall I am impressed with the lutz but as of right now I am unsure if the tone and volume I got is due to the lutz or some other reason.

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Alexandru Marian
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And how did the two tops compare in raw?




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KenH
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they looked equal, the stiffness was equal and the grain count was equal. The better sounding guitar is a flamed oregon myrtle. the other is a malaysian ebony.


they were both braced equal and they have the same strings on them. Dont get me wrong.... both guitars are excellent guitars, but the myrtle guitar has the best over all sound I have ever heard on a guitar. The myrtle guitar is quite a bit lighter than the ebony guitar as well.


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DarrenW
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Sorry Jody, didn't mean to hijack your thread.


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Brock Poling
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[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] If you're looking to make a top that is as light as possible, while still being stiff enough to take the string tension, you probably want to look at a wood that has lower density. [/QUOTE]

I don't really understand this.

If we are presuming that increased density (usually) brings with it increased stiffness (I realize that is an assumption open to debate), and if we are thinning the tops to a target deflection shouldn't the tops all be roughly the same in terms of weight.

Denser tops will end up thinner and less dense tops will end up a little thicker to compensate for the variance in stiffness.

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