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Gluing Fret Boards w/epoxy
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=15178		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:45 am ]
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This is the first time that I have used West Systems epoxy to glue a fret board to a neck and I wanted to share my impressions with my OLF pals.

The move to epoxy from Titebond was to avoid the slight amount of warping that I seem to always get when using Titebond.  Although this warping was very slight it would require me to spend extra time leveling the fret board.

In addition, this was my first time using a product that John Watkins sells - a radiused, hard maple fret board caul.

West Systems epoxy is a real pleasure to use and I bought the stuff pre-packaged in single use packs.  It mixes very easily and completely and paints on thin enough that it tends to self level itself.  once clamped there was squeeze out all around but the squeeze out was not runny and very easy to clean up some what before it cured.

To my surprise, since I have sanded epoxy before in a prior life, this stuff sands like a dream and did not clog the paper at all.  I am very impressed with West Systems and will be using it again where ever it makes sense to do so.

John's fret board caul was also a pleasure to use.  Prior to applying the epoxy I did a dry run with my clamps and checked for gaps and there were none.  The caul also has dimples in if for registration pins and the area over the truss rod is routed out so as to not apply pressure there.

It all went very well, very fast, and I am very pleased with the results.  The fret board when checked with a straight edge is perfectly level which is better then any other time I have glued one on in the past with Titebond.

Here are some pics.
Author:  grumpy [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:00 am ]
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Yikes! Next time, use some waxed paper between that caul and the fretboard, because eventually, some epoxy will get in there, and you'll lose 'em both!
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:13 am ]
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Hesh-
You should really use some thickener when gluing/laminating with epoxy, though this is such a low-stress application that you can get away with using straight epoxy, no doubt.

You can also use clear 'packing tape' over your caul to keep it from being glued- I'm kinda sloppy so I usually use wax paper and packing tape.
Cheers
John
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:27 am ]
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Good point guys but I was so impressed with the viscosity (pretty thin) of this West Systems that I decided that I did not need the waxed paper that I had already cut out.  The waxed paper also made the caul pretty slippery.

I am pretty neat with my gluing, an understatement, and I am looking for squeeze out all around but nothing more then a very small amount of squeeze out which is what I in fact received.  The other nice thing about this epoxy is that the squeeze out, though minimal, was not runny at all.  So I nixed the waxed paper.

Grump I am glad that you weighed in here because I wanted to ask you something else.  I have long been a fan of your method of pressing frets into the fret board prior to gluing the fret board to the neck.  But since I have never used this caul before I decided to fret the neck after gluing the fret board to the neck.  But my question for you is do you think that I could have fretted the fret board prior to gluing and then used the caul and clamps (waxed paper too) as in the pics above?  The caul would of course now be in contact with the frets and not the fret board.

Here are some pics of the squeeze out and you can see how it is minimal and stayed put and did not drip.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:32 am ]
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[QUOTE=fmorelli]Hesh,

   If you wish to fret first, you can slot the caul so it presses on the fretboard, not the frets.



Filippo[/QUOTE]

Now there is a good idea!!!!  But I would have to buy a stinkin table saw to do that.........
Author:  Blanchard [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:41 am ]
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A word of caution gluing fingerboards with epoxy..... some finishes are not compatible with some epoxies. Years ago, I glued several fingerboards with "Smith's all wood epoxy" and finished with McFadden's nitro lacquer. All was well until about 6 - 12  months later. At that point the lacquer developed a bunch of little bubbles all along the glue line. Even stripping the finish and refinishing did not solve the problem. The bubbles appeared again after several months.

I don't know if this is a problem with other combinations of epoxy and finish, but the Smith's all wood epoxy and McFadden's nitro is one combo that should be avoided.

Mark
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:45 pm ]
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I'm sure you can probably also just meet up with one of the guys there in
town to run it through if you're always going to use the same scale length
with the caul.

Pretty cool, Hesh. What did you use epoxy for in that prior life?
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:59 pm ]
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I used the same system for the first time today as well.  Had a fretted board so used clamping blocks radiused to match the board.  Very easy to use, I found the viscosity a little thin but nothing I could not deal with.  Used wax paper under the clamps but had a little extra seep out, tried to clean it up as best I could. This one is getting a shellac finish so hopefully it won't give the same results as the lacquer problem already noted.  Seems like a good system, tomorrow will clean up and see how it looks.
Best
Bruce
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:04 pm ]
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Hesh,

Nice all around job. The bound fretboard is very cool. The fretboard does look a little thick to my eye but it may be just the binding that makes it look that way.

Great Job! Sweet looking intrument!
Author:  jhowell [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:48 pm ]
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Hesh--


That does look good.  To be honest, I've shied away from epoxy in the past because I had been fretting prior to gluing to the neck and I was afraid of the potential mess at cleanup time.  From here on out I'll be following the principles we learned from David and do the glue up prior to fretting.  I was much more cavalier with my epoxy techniques with stitch and glue boat-building!


What is your source for the epoxy packets?  That is just a really cool way to handle small amounts of epoxy.
Author:  grumpy [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:21 pm ]
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Yeah Hesh, fret first, and use the same system you did here.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:01 pm ]
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Nice work, Hesh.  Your methodology is very efficient, particularly since you have little clean-up to do.  Looks like you're gonna have another really nice looking guitar.  You may have to add another room to your apartment to get them all in at the rate you're building.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:57 pm ]
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John: that's the first time I've ever seen anyone advocating the use of thickener for epoxy in a wood lamination/instrument building setting. Could you elaborate? I'm currently using 30 minute Z-poxy for my fingerboards.

Semi-related note: how do unmixed epoxy components do with exposure to sub-zero temperatures? Left my bottles out by mistake recently, dipped a few degrees below zero, and they seem fine, but I'm wary. If it were titebond, I'd have thrown it out.
Author:  Allen McFarlen [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:57 pm ]
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I fret first, then use the radius caul as you did Hesh and clamp everything together using WEST Systems. Work's a treat.

You could always get some thin medium density foam/rubber to use as a gasket material between the caul and fret board.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:15 am ]
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Thanks folks!

Mario - got it and thank you!

Allen that is good to know and I like the gasket material idea.

Jim buddy Stadium Hardware one isle from the windows at the front of the store (Stadium Blvd. side) on the left side end display off the center isle.  They have a huge selection of the stuff in all container sizes.  I asked them as well and they told me that they reorder monthly and have many customers for it.  So it moves.

Hey Joe great to see you posting my friend!!!

Nice going Bruce and we both seem to be at the same step at the same time.  Shelac will work well with epoxy since many people, me included, have used epoxy finishing resin as pore filler under french polish.

James buddy RC airplanes, helicopters, and later jets with a real, miniature jet engine.....  We used epoxy for engine mounts and firewalls. 

Mark my friend thanks for the input and I sure hope that does not happen here.  This is one getting a poly finish from Joe White.

Many thanks everyone
Author:  Matt Gage [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:37 am ]
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Mr.Hesh,

Im sure you have thought about this but,
I`m from the school of thought that you should be able to disassemble your guitars should you need too.

i doubt that you will ever get the f- board apart from the neck with out shattering the f-board.

maybe you wont ever have to take it apart,but maybe you will... I know i have had too!

Matt

Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:10 am ]
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[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] John: that's the first time I've ever seen anyone advocating the use of thickener for epoxy in a wood lamination/instrument building setting. Could you elaborate? I'm currently using 30 minute Z-poxy for my fingerboards.

[/QUOTE]

Mattia...
...How long have you been using Zpoxy for gluing FB's?
...Have you done any adhesion testing?
...Have you done any reversability trials?

I am seriously considering this and was planning to do testing ...but if you have such info, I'd be most interested. TIA

I was planning to use the West System Epoxy but don't have a local source. Since I never order liguid glues in the winter, I thought I'd try Zpoxy which I already have on hand.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:36 am ]
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Hey Matt - I think that you can get epoxy to release with heat also.  At least I hope so or better yet never have to find out.

Also a clarification of terms here for others who may be reading this thread.  The brand "Z-Poxy" makes a number of different formulas.

When we speak of using pore filler we are generally, at least I am, speaking of Z-Poxy "finishing resin."  This formula is designed for pore filling and is not designed to be an epoxy glue.

What Mattia is speaking of is Z-Poxy's 30 minute epoxy glue - also very good stuff but not designed as a pore filler although you can probably use it this way.

West Systems is epoxy glue and can also be used as a pore filler with great results although I have never used it this way - yet.

My point is I am hoping that this will help some one avoid using Z-Poxy "finishing resin" as a glue for fret boards or anything else.

Thanks.
Author:  Dave Anderson [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:51 am ]
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Very nice mini-tute Hesh. As I told you I am considering using the same system here as you. I thought you could use heat and remove an epoxy glued fretboard.Some have said it will shatter so I'm rethinking this. I wonder if anybody actually uses HHG for fingerboards?? Thanks for posting this Hesh.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:01 am ]
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Thanks for watching my back Hesh! I should have elaborated on the method to my madness. I was assuming that Mattia used the finishing resin...my mistake. But I was actually planning to try the finishing resin as a product for gluing the FB...perhaps with thickening agents added if need be. Folly perhaps... but if existing inventory can be used for multiple purposes, I'm all for it. As always, I test first and more often than not fail and learn until success is stumbled upon.
Author:  joe white(old) [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:09 am ]
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JJ, If you want to use West for your fretboard, I can run down with mine and you are welcome to use it.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:29 am ]
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Thanks, Joe...I am in no hurry to glue up the FB and was planning this testing anyway. No special trip necessary. We may have a meeting soon anyway when Hesh and I invite you for Chinese food in Angola in a few weeks...stay tuned! If I need the West then, I'll let you know.
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:38 am ]
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I'm pretty impressed with the West product, thanks Hesh for posting your results, got me going on my own photography of my project.
You and others have mentioned epoxy as a pore filler, I sometimes build electric guitars for friends and have been frustrated filling pores in ash. I've used products from StewMac etc with not great results.  Seems like an epoxy would be a solution.  Anybody use that for this kind of pore filling?  I'd like to leave the ash as close to the original color as possible even though I'm mostly doing sunburst finishes.

In regard to removal, there seems to be enough evidence from many forum members that they can remove epoxied fingerboards if necessary without destructive forces involved...heat seems to do the trick.  I'm not sure I would have used it were it not for those comments I've read over the last few months.

Bruce
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:12 am ]
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Way-to-go Bruce.  I agree and I really like this West Systems epoxy and will be trying it for pore filling too.  I know that some of the pro finishers use it for this as well.

Dave buddy the problem, as I see it, with HHG beyond the minuscule open time is that it is a water based glue just like Titebond.   Using a water based glue, and the warping that can result , is why I tried epoxy instead for this application.  If I stayed with a water based glue I would use Titebond or fish glue and give my nerves a break over the rush required using HHG.
Author:  erikbojerik [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:44 am ]
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I have no experience yet with West Systems, but "epoxy" and "epoxy
glue" are probably not the same thing it seems to me.  In my day
job (geologist) I've used epoxy (Buehler) to glue polished rock to
glass for making transparent miscrosope slides (the rock is thinned to
30 microns and polished), and this epoxy won't separate until you get
to something like 350-400°F.



But then again, there are epoxies and "epoxies"...I wouldn't expect Home-Depot grade Loctite to be as strong as the Buehler.



Hesh, what if you used the nice caul with Titebond...maybe it would come out just as straight...???
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