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HELP!!!!!!!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=15215		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:54 am ]
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Ok? I am working with Curly Walnut bindings for the first time. I have bent Curly Koa, Curly Maple, Curly eucalyptus, Ziricote and Snakewood bindings, all known to be prone to easy snapping and bending breakage. But I have never had the problem I am having with this Curly Walnut.

I have treated with SSII and they bent with out any issues but every piece out of a dozen pieces has broke into with the slightest tension when handling.

I can't figure it out. They bend fine but every time I I try to attach them to the body they are snapping into darn near just looking at them.

I have even saturated in CA prior to bending. Again they bent without issue but when handling them the snap.

Is this typical of Curly Walnut?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:24 am ]
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Bump
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:25 am ]
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Michael,
On really contankerous woods I boil them prior to bending them in a Fox bender. I made a small steel channel that I lay across a double hot plate. The wood is boiled for about 1/2 hour and in the bender they go. I have not lost any figured bindings or brittle ebony by doing this. The only problem is you have to cycle them several times to evacuate all of the water in the bindings or you will have binding separation as they continue to dry once they are on the guitar. Don't ask how I learned this valuable lesson
Author:  Wes McMillian [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:31 am ]
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Hmmm...I've got some Curly Walnut coming in for bindings I can't wait to use. No help here, but I'll sure be tracking this thread...
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:41 am ]
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I think that there are some sides or bindings that just will not bend. I had a set of ebony that behaved the same way. I was getting pretty down on ebony bindings but decided to try a different set. I could (almost) tie the new bindings into a knot without breaking them.

What seemed to be happening in my case was that the lignin in the wood was too weak to hold the fibers together under any kind of strain. There may be no technique that will let you bend this stuff. Try a different batch.
Author:  burbank [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:53 am ]
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I read Michael's main problem as this:

He bent them using SS without issue, but they fall apart when gluing to the body.
Author:  joelThompson [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:55 am ]
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Michael,

It may be that you have excesive run out in the bidings espesialy if one in
every 12 that breaks.

This is realy a problem with curly woods especialy if the curl is very very
accute.
After all most types of curl is essentualy localised run out along the curl.

Also with woods like curly mahogany and wallnut it can be more of a
problem than it can with curly maple becouse of the density etc of the
wood.

I have noticed that certain types of curl come apart very easily when being
bent and the only solution i have found is to reject the wood (which i hate
doing)or work with more care than usual.

Does the binding snap streight across the width of the strip.
or does it follow the grain at an angle to the face of the strip, or with the
grain fibers of the curl.

If the latter then its definatly a run out problem and you will have
problems bending them.

If it is a run out problem all you can do is bend with care and except that
some will snap.
Once they are in service the runout will not be a problem as they have
allready been bent.

I hope this helps a little,

Joel.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:31 am ]
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It is defiantly a grain run-out issue. None of the breakes looked line your typical impact or pressure snap breakage. Every bend process was successful. I broke two just removing them from the bender. So I realized I had to be careful. Only 2 broke during bending. The rest of that dozen broke either just by normal handling or when fitting to the body. I have worked with a lot of problematic curly bindings, but never have seen any thing break as easy as these

I guess I will order another dozen and test to see if they are any better.
Author:  FishtownMike [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:25 am ]
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Hi..What is SSII? he said he pre treated them with this. Not all of us understand the abreviations many people use on here. By the way a have always heard the walnut bends nice. I have plans on using curly walnut binding so I just want to understand the terms a little more so I know what they mean incase i run into problems.
Author:  joelThompson [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:26 am ]
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super soft two.

Joel.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:48 am ]
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Walnut does bend nice, The problem was not in the bending. They bent just fine. The problem was you could not handle them gently enough after bending to keep from causing breakage. I suspect that problem had to do more with the batch of bindings I had having too much grain run-out.

By the way SuperSoftII is a glycol based product used in the veneer industry to plasticize the wood fiber (make it flexible) it is a real aid in bending high figure woods, or any wood for that matter.
Author:  FishtownMike [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:59 am ]
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Thanks Joel. This is the stuff you use to soften veneer. I get it now.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:06 am ]
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Sounds like the walnut is sticking to your steel slats. Try paper on both sides.
Author:  FishtownMike [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:08 am ]
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Thanks michaelp i'll have to try this stuff.
Author:  grumpy [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:02 pm ]
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Since nobody asked, how thick are these bindings?
Author:  paul harrell [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm ]
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I had the same problem with a batch of curly maple bindings I got a couple of swap meets ago. They came out of the bender in one piece, but just holding them up to the guitar to check the fit, and they broke in many pieces, straight across with the curl.

                        Peace, Paul
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:55 am ]
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nope I wrapped in foil
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:56 am ]
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1/4 tall .08 thick
Author:  grumpy [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:04 am ]
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Did they fall apart when taking them from the foil? Have you tried bending them directly(no foil, no paper)?

If you have enough of this stock, and if it's such nice figure that it's worth the effort, thinning them to .040" and them laminating in place(just pretend you're doing a full width purfling) to build back up to .080". The glue line will never show. I do this with ebony, and don't even have to pre-bend...
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:55 am ]
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Grumpy, I did brake a couple removing the foil but figured out that I needed to be very careful. Yes I tried kraft paper and just between the slats. The same problems either way. I am not a cluz, I have done this before and never had such an issue. I kid you not of all the high figured bindings I have bent in the past seven years I have never had such a hard time. I am out and having to order a couple dozen more. I hopping that it was just the batch that I had had excessive run-out. Yea I know it is curly so run-out is a given. I have bent lots of various Walnut sides with high figure and the only problem I have ever had was occasional faceting in cutaways.
Author:  Steve Saville [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:56 am ]
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If it is not just the nature of the wood being used, could the bending process be making them brittle?
Too much heat/time at temp?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:02 am ]
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No I don't think so. They got to temp in a couple min and the hoe bending process on the non cutaway mold took maybe 4 min tops and 5-6 for the cutaway. I cooked for 5mm cooled 4 hours cooked for 4 min. I did light spritz, med spritz and heavy spritz, all sowed the same touchiness
Author:  Steve Saville [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:14 am ]
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My guess is that it is just the wood.

What temperature do you use on your bindings?
Do you go hotter for curly wood?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:18 am ]
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300-310
Author:  Brett Faust [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:20 pm ]
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   Have you tried laminating to a sacrificial veneer that will be trimmed off after installation?
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