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beginner bending sides
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=15227		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Cuff [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:47 pm ]
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Hi all,


I'm new round here. I am going to soon be building a weissenborn and really have no specialist tools. Is there any specialised tools that I should be looking at buying that you would consider essential for the process? Also, what do you recommend as the easiest, but relatively cost effective way to bend the sides?


Any input is very appreciated.


 


Cheers,


Cuff
Author:  klepsap [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
A bending iron for the sides appears at first glance to be the cheapest
method for bending acoustic guitar sides. There is the odd chance you
will break some wood at first which can be costly. There is a recent post
on here by ozziebluesman who states he scorched his sides with a
bending iron. If you can't get the scorch out it can be frustrating, too. I
have yet to try a bending machine with heat blankets or heat lamps but
they sure look nice. It looks like you get what you pay for.

Your question about specialty tools is very general.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by specialty but i will try and guess.
You can get by with very little or go extreme.
What tools do you have at present?
Are we talking lower end on a budget or very little concern for budget?
The amount of money you are willing to spend plays a factor in choices
between things like hand planes versus machine planers, jointers,
thickness sanders, table saws and bandsaws versus hand saws, Hand
drills or a drill press.

Many jobs can be done without expensive tools but maybe require more
time and steps. Such as thicknessing or joining your materials with a
hand plane.

Do you have Chisels? Clamps? Wood scrapers?
Do you want to do a rosette around the soundhole? Binding on the edge
of the guitar? If you do, those require some specialty tools that can be
found at places like Stew-Mac, Lmii, etc.

just a couple of ideas,

Steve

Author:  Cuff [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:00 pm ]
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By specialised tools I meant lutherie tools that are apart from standard clamps, saws, planers - things I'd need to order from stew mac etc.


Don't really know my budget right now, i would rather keep it as low as possible as this is my first build
Author:  Heath Blair [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:26 pm ]
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hey grant, if you have not been welcomed, let me be the first to do so. welcome! i also am just getting started on my first build. i have bent a few sets of sides, but have yet to actually start on my first real build (six weeks off work starting 01/07/08, so lots of build time coming up. lets see, 6 weeks build time minus having a new baby probably doesnt equal much build time at all actually).


im not sure if your question is directed at building in general or if it just refers to bending sides, but here is what i know so far: there is a ton of stuff that you will need that you can build by yourself and save a whole bunch of money. if you have a router (with a flush trimming bit) and a jig saw (a bandsaw is even better) you can do quite a bit. you can use these to build an outside mold (if you build with one), an inside side bending form (for use with a side bending blanket), radius dishes for glueing braces to top/back. the list is actually really long. so many jigs, fixtures, forms, etc. that can be built right at home. theres a ton of info in the archives on how to build these things. what tools do you already own? i think a heating blanket is a great investment. its gonna cost you a bit, but if you are looking for cheap, i would find a different hobby. Big smile   


http://www.bluescreekguitars.com/catalog/index.php?main_page =index&cPath=8&zenid=f508b56c16159847f1ebd2d5f165925 3


you will definitely need some chisels and a plane or two. i would highly recommend some kind of instructional book or dvd's. i own both of these and they are great:


http://www.amazon.com/Guitarmaking-Tradition-Technology-Cons truction-Steel-String/dp/0811806405/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s =books&qid=1199344304&sr=8-1


hmmm... couldnt get john mayes web site. must be down. but john's dvd's are a great heads up on building and i know others will second that.


i hope this helps some. anymore questions and i would be glad to help. the more specific you are about what you have and what you want to do is helpful too. Big smile


 


 
Author:  grumpy [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:45 pm ]
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Many of us have used, and still use(I bend my mandolins on the pipe, still, and touch up guitar sides all the time with) a iron pipe with a propane torch running through it, as a "bending iron". I simply put the pipe(2-1/2" or 3" by about 1- to 12" long) in the vise, and place a propane torch so that it shoots down the middle, not quite touching the pipe itself. It gets hot enough in about a minute or two(max).

a great way to bend sides.
Author:  Cuff [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
thanks for the input - sorry for my lack of detail. let me rephrase

Part 1: I have basic tools like jigsaw, sander, chisels, clamps - what extra
tools will i need for the build?

Part 2: What technique do you recommend for bending the sides and what
tools are required to do so?

thanks again
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:52 pm ]
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Hi Cuff,
you can get by with very little in the way of specialized tools. Most of the operations can be done in a number of ways, and by searching this site and others you will find a wide range of methods described.

However, for a first instrument I recommend getting a book or a DVD or something that explains each step thoroughly and following the instructions until the instrument is done. This will give you a better grasp of all the steps involved and a better foundation for choosing different methods for subsequent instruments. Opinions on the ‘best’ way to build a first instrument vary; some take classes, others build kits, some just dive in etc., I guess it depends on how you like to learn. I built my first following Cumpiano and Natelson’s book “Guitarmaking, Tradition and Technology”. It focuses on very basic tooling and that has a lot of information, although some of it somewhat ‘dated’. It shows how to build a steel sting and a classical guitar, but many of the techniques I’m sure can be transferred to the Weissenborn. Get the tools that the text calls for and build the instrument, and come back with specific questions regarding the process.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:50 am ]
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I use some different size pipes depending on the curve of the bend, here is one I made that works for most bends. It is a 4" iron pipe that was squeezed into an oval shape, with a flange welded on. It has an opening in the back for the torch (barely visible in the picture) and is mounted on a wooden holder with a piece of drywall between the wood and the iron.

Author:  ozziebluesman [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:58 am ]
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Welcome Cuff,


Its a good place to learn about guitar building around here. Go on, ask the questions.  


Cheers


Alan
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:55 am ]
Post subject: 
There is always more than one way to skin a cat.  My pipe bender cost me about $10 - 20.00.  Truck tail pipe section [24"] (sawed in just under half and the second piece slotted with a hacksaw, then squeezed into the other half to give it more mass.  Heated with an old 5 watt Soldering Iron. I packed some miscellaneous pieces of steel around the iron to transfer the heat to the pipe.  Just pieces of flat bar stock cut with a hacksaw.  You could fill it with old screws.  It wouldn't matter.  Other heating elements that work well are BBQ fire starters, bent to fit in the pipe, Propane torches, as Grumpy mentioned, a heat gun pointed into the pipe, be careful to close the end near you (probably the same with a torch).  Mine looks like this:


The thermometer is a BBQ grill thermometer.  $5.00 at Home Depot.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Specialty tools for lutherie are nothing more than adapted general wood working tools

as far as bending is concerned there is theory, experience and practicality points of view. I believe it is good to learn hand bending on an Iron or Pipe You have hands on feel of what the wood is doing. (that is my theoretical and experience point of view). Now for my practical point of view. The repeatability of a Fox style or at least a mold form style bender is very practical and efficient way to bend. Any mode of bending you choose you are going to break sets in the beginning and even on occasion once you have lots of experience. no two pieces of wood have exactly the same bending characteristics.

So in short If you plan to continue to build long past 3 or four builds The a Fox style bender, A heating blanket and controller are well spent investments. but I would also build a pipe bender and learn on it first. All you need is pipe, a pipe flange, wood stock, propane torch and a backing slat. That is $80 at the most if all is bought new.
Author:  Cuff [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:10 am ]
Post subject: 

thanks for all the info guys!


with the pipe technique - what temp should it be heated at?


also how long should the torch be left in there at a time?
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
I keep the flame on the torch all the time, but I adjust it so the temperature is right, which is when water will sizzle and boil on the surface of the pipe. I monitor the heat on the pipe surface by spraying water on it; if the water just sits there and there is no boiling going on its too cold, if the water insantly becomes steam its too hot! Also, the pipe will have diffrenent temperatures on top and on the sides, a bit colder towards the tip and so on, so you just find the right spot and go to town.
Author:  Cuff [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:11 pm ]
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Thanks Arnt!


 


one more thing - does the pipe need to be blocked off at one end or is it open on both ends?
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:05 pm ]
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Great bending irons folks! Good to see people here are still making handmade guitars (and mandos, Arnt!) by hand.


 
Author:  Daniel M [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:50 am ]
Post subject: 
You picked a great project for your first. With any of the methods mentioned above you can get excellent results.
All the bends in a Weiss. are nice & soft & you should have no trouble if you take your time. I like to encourage beginners to hand bend over a hot pipe or bending iron. Let your sense of touch & smell guide you as much as your eyes.
The biggest problem most beginners have is in not thinning the sides sufficiently.
If you can find some cheap side material, practice before you start working on the real thing.
Have fun!
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