| Official Luthiers Forum! http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| Target 9000 Impressions http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=1962 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | BruceH [ Fri May 13, 2005 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi All, Here are my impressions of the Target Superclear 9000 Waterborne Polyurethane. Remember, I’m a first-time user and my opinion is probably worth what you’re paying for it. For a frame of reference, I used nitro (brushed) on my only other instrument. The good: No smell. I applied it in my kitchen. Dries fast. Suitable for brush application. I used a 10 cent foam brush. Sands easy. Burns in when repairing – no witness lines. (Mario reports that it doesn’t burn in after a month, but I don’t have any experience with this.) Buffs clear and to a nice shine. Short time to wait before buffing. From last coat to fully buffed in one week. The bad: A real bear to buff. Forget hand buffing or handheld buffing wheels. The hand held wheel that worked great on nitro wouldn’t even touch this stuff. I had to build a pedestal buffer and use the bars of menzurna buffing compound. Did I mention that it is hard to buff? I think that two buffing sessions are best – one at three days and a second at about a week. The questionable: While this is finish clear and definitely does not have a blueish tint, it does have a slightly milky/plasticy appearance if you look closely at the right angle in the right light. It is not apparent if you are not looking for it, but it does not have the warmth of nitro. Isopropyl alcohol will dissolve it quickly, as I discovered while trying to remove some masking tape residue. Some masking tape will etch the finish. (This was a separate incident from the Iso alcohol incident.) The adhesion is questionable. I caught the edge of the sound hole while buffing and it pulled up a small strip of the finish as if it was a piece of tape. The area where my arm lays on the top has quickly lost some of its shine. I don’t know if my sweat is reacting with the 9000, or if I didn’t get a good buff. I’ll be watching this closely. So in the final analysis, I’ve got mixed feeling about the 9000. I want to like it, but I’m not sure if the good outweighs the bad. I think that I’ll use it on a couple more and see what develops. BruceH |
|
| Author: | Jeff Doty [ Fri May 13, 2005 3:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Bruce, Great post. I tried the Target USL on my kit guitar, but I ended up sanding it off. It may be a very good quality product, and I am just too inexperienced to make it work. I am having a better time with nitro. I understand the dangers involved with nitro......but darn, I really like it! I just need to be as cautious as possible, and always try to minimize dangers. Jeff |
|
| Author: | Mario [ Fri May 13, 2005 3:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
A real bear to buff Yup, and I warn everyone, too <bg> but it does not have the warmth of nitro No waterborne does. It's a fact. None. Zip. Best to not compare them to each other. What you noted about it looking "plastic-y" at certain angles is true of all waterbornes, too. Especially if you have it on even a bit heavy. Isopropyl alcohol will dissolve it quickly Hmmm, I don't have any here to try, but methyl alcohol and denatured never bothered it once fully cured. Can you test a small area with the isopropyl in a month from now? That would tell us if there is indeed a problem. masking tape will etch the finish As it will any other finish(except polyester), including nitro. The adhesion is questionable I think the adhesion is fine(for a waterborne), but it is easy to catch an edge and have it peel like that if that edge was a little too warm from the buffing. Again, especialy if it is on a little heavy. Not sure why this is, but I've seen it also. The area where my arm lays on the top has quickly lost some of its shine. Now this one is a true first. The one thing I've not seen is any problem from skin contact. But, every person has a unique body chemistry, so you may indeed by burning it. Buff the area out again, then keep an eye on it. |
|
| Author: | John Mayes [ Fri May 13, 2005 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I've tried the waterborne stuff too and I had many of the same problems that mario, and you mentioned. I prefer nitro, or urethane (nitro is "warmer" looking, but urethane is nice and clear and not too thick looking) |
|
| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Fri May 13, 2005 7:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hmm..interesting. I'm still quite pleased with USL, although it is a tad soft. It looks nice, though, although I'll have to wait and see about durability. I'd like to do more nitro, but that just ain't gonna happen in any safe way until I get proper shop/spray booth space. |
|
| Author: | Mario [ Sat May 14, 2005 2:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
John, correct, there is nothing like nitro except nitro(well, polyester is actually nicer and better in every respect, except repairability), but for many of us, nitro is not an option. For some, it is the odor and fume problems(build at home, apartments, etc...), and for others, like myself, we are sensitized to it, and have severe allergic reactions when near nitro. In my case, I go into 'chemical asthma' if I am within 50 feet of an open can of it. Not fun.... So, waterbornes, with all their shortcomings, are needed. |
|
| Author: | John Mayes [ Sat May 14, 2005 3:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
wow allergic reactions.. that sucks. So do you just mainly do french polish, I can't remember which one you mainly build with. I've worked with Niteo, 2 part urethane, polyester, waterborne, oils, wax, but I still like the ease of working with nitro, but urethane is high on the list too. But it does not matter cause I sub the finish out now.. the nitro, despite my mask and best efforts, was really getting to me, and I had a hard time breathing smoothly after a day of spraying... |
|
| Author: | Mario [ Sat May 14, 2005 3:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I'm using polyester now. Nastier than nitro, but my system can handle it while it can't handle nitro. |
|
| Author: | John Mayes [ Sat May 14, 2005 3:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
yeah the stuff can be thick and goey, but builds quick, and cures fast (can be hard to buff though) It is great stuff, but a pain to deal with... as you already mentioned... |
|
| Author: | BruceH [ Sat May 14, 2005 4:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hey Mario, I've got a sample that I've had curing for over two months. I just tested the Iso alcohol on it and it still ate into the finish. How long should I wait before I consider this stuff fully cured? I'll try again then and let you know. BruceH |
|
| Author: | Mario [ Sat May 14, 2005 6:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Nope, should be completely cured long before the 2 months were up. Tell Jeff about the isopropyl thing if you wish. |
|
| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Mon May 16, 2005 7:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I was talking to Rolf Gerhart at the last ASIA symposium and he was lamenting about Blue Grass players disolving the finish on his mandolins. It's not that Blue Grass players are particularly toxic but they play a lot at festivals and they are outdoors. Insect sprays that contain DEET seem to be death to finishes. Mario, Your clients are mostly blue grass players, aren't they? Have you had any special problems with DEET? |
|
| Author: | Mario [ Mon May 16, 2005 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Deet happens. Everyone knows to avoid it, or pay the piper. 'grass players also play in hot, humid environments. They don't coddle their instruments in climat controlled rooms only, and wash the hands befroe playing <g> French polished shellac holds up well to both deet and sweat.... |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|