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| I always get this question http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=2189 |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:46 am ] |
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so I made up this flyer to send to prospective clients. I poste only the text. Do I want or can I afford a Hand Crafted Guitar? I am often asked this question by prospective clients. To be honest, from a luthier’s point of view, this is a hard question to answer. Eventually the client must answer it for themselves. Here are some of my thoughts on the matter from both a musician’s and luthier’s point of view. •How seriously do you take your music and playing abilities? If you are a semiprofessional or full time professional you already understand the importance of a fine crafted instrument. However if you are a personal pleasure player or an up and coming student you may have not played anything but a factory built instrument. In this case I would find some one with a hand crafted instrument. Play it, compare its intonation, playability and tonal quality to a well crafted factory guitar. You will more than just likly find a world of differences. •Does a factory built guitars provide you with the playability you are looking for? If a factory built guitar fits your playing style to a “T”, then on this one point alone I have to say it will be much less expensive to buy a quality factory built guitar. However keep in mind that a factory built guitars is built on a tolerance added set-up procedure. The sting height is set at factory specifications. Intonation is set within an acceptable tonic range. You can have the factories custom shop take the time to do a set-up for you at an additional charge or you can take your factory guitar to an experienced luthier and pay him to set it up. However any luthier worth his weight in saw dust will take the time to set a custom built guitar up to fit your preferences and set intonation to ideal tempered intonation. All as part of the standard package you commission. •Can you find the size of guitar and the wood combinations you want in a factory guitar? Factories build production model guitars. A set of standard tone wood combinations that they feel the general guitar playing public is looking for. This is a necessary evil of big business. And guitar factories are most certainly big business. They must be ultra efficient in material usage and acquisition. It is just not practical for factories to offer the end user the opportunity to choose the type or specific sets of tone wood to build with. Many factories do have a custom shop option available and will build to suit the client for a price. That price is typically equivalent or higher than what a custom build luthier will ask. •Do you want individualized appointments on your guitar. To me this is one of the least important reasons to commission a hand crafted instrument. However it is one of the most common reasons a player considers a commission. Once again many factories offer inlay and other appointments as options though their custom shops. Also there are many experienced luthiers that will provide this service after market. But it is always best to have these done during the building stage to avoid possible damage to your instrument. •Are you buying this guitar for a temporary instrument or as a life time musical partner? To me this is the big question. If you don’t know in your heart that you want and deserve an instrument, a musical partner that will be a keeper for a life time. Then you probably are not ready to have a hand crafted instrument built for you. All custom build luthiers pore their time, sweat, muscle and heart into every instrument they build. Every guitar they builds is like a child. No two are the same. Each has different characteristics that set them apart. The magic of a hand crafted instrument is in its details. A hand crafted instrument is a creature unattainable from a factory because a factory worker can not take the time to put their heart and soul into each stage of the instruments construction as the individual luthier does. There are exceptions to this statement. Some major producers like Collins and Larrivee, to mention only a couple, keep the tradition of quality luthierie and produce among the worlds fines guitars. Because of their dedication to the art of luthierie. I find it hard to call these companies factories. However their prices reflect this commitment to perfection and are on par with the best custom builders. •Can you afford a custom built guitar? Budget restraints naturally are in play here. keep in mind your not buying the standard production guitar. You are commissioning the birth of a life long friend and musical partner. And also keep in mind that if you paid for the typical $3k hand crafted guitar. the luthier that built it barely made minimum wage for his effort. I can tell you this as a matter of truth. “No luthier builds solely for the money. They ask for money solely so they can build.” I hope this has helped Michael Payne |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:47 am ] |
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Man Michael, You have a way with words. Can any of this be lifted to be put, say, on a fellow luthier's brochures? |
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| Author: | Jeff Doty [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:52 am ] |
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Michael, Excellent. Very nicely done, and something all builders should consider doing. Jeff |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:03 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Pwoolson] Man Michael, You have a way with words. Can any of this be lifted to be put, say, on a fellow luthier's brochures? [/QUOTE] I have no issue with it. |
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| Author: | RCoates [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:05 am ] |
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Yeah I agree. Very eloquent. Could I use this if I give credit to the author? Thnx |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:17 pm ] |
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Michael, I was thinking the same thing as the others. This fall I will be giving a lecture at our town's music fest on what constitutes a fine guitar; of course my emphasis will be on hand building. I'm going to steal (borrow) a few of your thoughts. Many thanks, Steve |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:52 pm ] |
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Nicely said! There are a few grammatical/typographical snafus in there you've missed out on (I translate and edit to finance my tonewood addiction, occupational hazard), probably because proofreading your own work is nigh-on impossible. Mind if I do little editing? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:38 pm ] |
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Anyone feel free to use it. It came from being tickled as recent prospective client asked me if he needed a hand crafted instrument. Expecting me to be able to answer that for him. In truth I get basically the same question from almost every non-professional prospective client during the initial inquiry. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:41 pm ] |
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Yea I found them too. If you use feel free. I fixed my flyer I have not mailed out yet to the one client. but will today |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:42 pm ] |
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Michael--you've certainly got philosophical customers there in West Texas. All I'm asked--and w/ great consistency--is "How long does it take to build one of them things?" |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:53 pm ] |
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Michael Great piece of writing. I would also like to borrow some of your thoughts and pass them on to prospective customers. Thanks for posting that. Josh |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:09 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird] Michael--you've certainly got philosophical customers there in West Texas. All I'm asked--and w/ great consistency--is "How long does it take to build one of them things?"[/QUOTE] Steve it's funny how often I seem to get this question right after I tell them I require a 75% deposit or after they ask how much more for D-45 style purfling and a tree of life inlay.  |
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| Author: | JBreault [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:15 am ] |
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Micheal Very nicely put... Not to be nit-picky, but, int he third paragraph froam th end you wrote: "All luthiers pore their time sweat, etc." This should read: "All luthiers pour their time, sweat, etc." I know its a small thing, but I couldn't help but notice it. I've always tried to articulate to friends why someone would buy a guitar for three or four thousand dollars and they still think I'm crazy. Now I can show them what you wrote and maybe then they'll understand... 
Joe |
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| Author: | Colby Horton [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:24 am ] |
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Thanks for posting that. I may have to borrow a line or two from that also. 
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:30 am ] |
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Ok I thinks I caught all the typos and grammer snafus (see updated post) |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:33 am ] |
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$3-4k is quite a common range for factory instuments, much less custom, handbuilt work. trying to justify the cost to non-musicians who would readilly spend as much or more on a stereo or big screen tv is a waste of time and effort; trying to do it with many musicians falls into the same category. i don't try to "sell" my work. if someone convinces me to build for them i do. i don't deal with philistines. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:33 am ] |
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Michael you got me thinking. What does a Taylor 712ce go for new in you neck of the woods. The reason I ask is Taylor’s suggested retail is $3.4K but they sell all-day for $1.9k around here this is fairly typical through out most the majors manufactures. I was corious if this is a reagional thing or typical nation wide. |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:50 am ] |
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Michael, this is why building is even more attractive over here: RRP in US dollars is what we pay in Euros. |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:52 am ] |
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michael -- i haven't been into the one major taylor dealer in asheville for a year or so but as i recall they were marked at about the $2.5K mark. don't place too much trust in my memory though. then again marked price and what they might accept may vary as well. while discounting has been prevalent for a long time, over the past 10-20 years or so the the big chain stores and the internet sellers have certainly forced street prices down markedly for the better quality factory instruments. also, i can't help but feel that the discounting plus the big names moving into the lower priced end of the market has tended to cheapen the perceived worth of the brand as a whole and increased price point buyer resistance. it would be interesting to see the sales figures history and how the introduction of the lower priced taylors or martins has influenced sales of their better instruments, as well as the prices at which they are being sold. somehow i don't think they would have been helped the fact that martin is putting out a plastic guitar must have old cf not just turning over but spinning in his grave. so much for tradition and quality in our dumbed down society. |
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| Author: | Don A [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:45 am ] |
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Thanks Michael. I'm pulling up my mask so you won't know its me who just robbed ya!
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:46 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Don A] Thanks Michael. I'm pulling up my mask so you won't know its me who just robbed ya! [/QUOTE]
Don't steal it till tomarrow I am correcting some grammer issues 
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| Author: | EricKeller [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:52 am ] |
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When I was buying a lot of musical equipment in the 70's and 80's, the discount that you could expect was 40% on guitars and 20% on keyboards and other electronics. I don't know if this is still the case, but that was true in every store I ever delt with. |
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| Author: | Dave Rector [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:57 am ] |
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This brings up a question I've been wondering about. Do any of you guys who list your guitars for $3000, $4000, or whatever, leave any wiggle room for the customer? Or do you stick to your listed prices no matter what? I have a tendency to wanna just about give these things away so I can get on to building the next one. 
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:50 am ] |
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Dave, I've never had anyone so much as ask for a discount. I've offered it to people I feel deserve it (nice people that are going to let me do the work vs. standing over me breathing down my neck, and still not being happy with anything). I once offered a discount to a woman from my church that was buying a 12 string for her son. She turned it down and paid full price. Wow, that will make your day!!! |
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| Author: | arvey [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:43 am ] |
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I have had customers start beating around the bush trying to get me to give them a deal. Ussually I don't bite. If they want a deal, wait till the end of the summer and buy a demo. This did happen with one woman recently though who contacted me about building her a guitar back in September. She spent all this time wondering about it (she has never played or even seen one of my guitars, but had ordered a Martin and then had a Musician friend talk her out of that and put her on to me.) In the meantime I raised my prices 20% and she couldn't afford what she had wanted. I cut he a bit of a deal and am going to use some lower grade wood, but normally I don't do that. I did tell her I'll be raising my prices again in September though so she needs the deposite in befor then. Turned out she put the full amount down as her deposite to get on the list. I do have a discount for actively touring musicians which I don't advertise but use as an incentive. What really go me was when a guy sat down at my booth, played for about 1/2 hour and then offer me $300 for the guitar  Michael, I might be interested in posting this or some form of it on my site and giving you credit. If I do I'd put a link to your site. What is your site address. |
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