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White Tops???????
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=2318		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  WalterK [ Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:44 am ]
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Hi Guys,
I have a serious question that I need help with. How do you folks and many of the Big Guys get those tops so lily white and clean of the natural grain lines and such?
I just prayed a sitka spruce top with urethane and before spraying it there did not appear as it does now.
Every grain line and whatever showed up "Big Time".
The top looks like a 70 yr old Martin I once owned.
Instant antique finish. I know urethane has a yellowing effect and I can live with that..it looks cool. But the numerous lines and different shades showed up too??
Do you folks Bleach your tops?
Your help will be appreciated.
Thanks, WalterK
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:54 am ]
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It's called "Englemann Spruce"
Author:  Shawn [ Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:14 am ]
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Don is right...Englemann...Old German is very white but very seldom seen nowadays. White Spruce can be quite white but the grain will definitely show whereas Englemann the grain is very subdued.
Author:  WalterK [ Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:39 pm ]
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Don...
I know what Engleman spruce looks like.
I'm talking about Sitka Sp.
Perhaps I didn't express myself properly. I should post a picture to make it more clear.
I was at a local music store today and looked at several sitka spruce topped guitars. They did not experience the problem I'm having with my top.
Thanks
Author:  EricKeller [ Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:33 pm ]
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I think people that want a white top just pay for white tops. That has historically been one of the factors that affected grading of tops, if you had a AAAA+ top, it had to be colorless in addition to being stiff, consistent and tightly grained.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:54 pm ]
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Funny, I rather like some color in my tops. One of the enjoyable things about Sitka is that you can count on some tans and pinks showing up. I would never bleach a top.
Author:  Michael McBroom [ Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:18 pm ]
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My limited (so far) experience with spruce is that, of the North American varieties, Engelmann is the whitest and shows the lightest grain lines. Some, if not most, sitka will show darker grain lines, lots of silk (if well quartersawn) and often streaks of color. Euro varieties are often quite white colored, but Engelmann seems to be whiter than the German and "Euro" I've used.

Me, I =like= that sort of aged look that often sitka exhibits once a finish is put to it. It gives the guitar a bit of that pre-aged look that seems to be the rage with the custom shops these days.

Best,

Michael
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:56 am ]
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I would question your finish clarity. Are you sure it is water white clear finish? If not that will impart some color to the wood. Also consider sealing the top with a vinyl washcoat or a de-waxed clear shellac. This will prevent the finsh from seeping into the pores and bringing out unexpected color.

By the way, the Carpatian Spruce that I have been using is even whiter than Engleman.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:55 am ]
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Unless I am off base, I think what he is saying is he wants the grain lines to be very feint (as well as a very white top). Carpathian is very white, but its grain is pronounced.

Tight grained Englemann has nearly invisible grain lines.
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:20 am ]
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Walter,

what grit did you sand too before applying your finish? Also, did you happen to use a sealer (shellac or z poxy etc) under the finish. Sometime sitka has lines in it from pitch which cause discoloration. What grade sitka are you using? And finally, what brand urethane are you using? ILVA distributed by Camger has a water white acrylic urethane with UV protectors that will not add the amber color present in traditional urethanes.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:22 am ]
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Walter don't get me wrong here, I don't have any issues with a top being paper white. However, I have to say I prefer to see slight variances in my tops. I like the grain and silking to be apparent. I guess that is just the wood lover in me showing, but if a top came out like a piece of paper I would find it boring. I get my kicks seeing the individual character of each piece of wood appear and become distinct under the finish.
Author:  WalterK [ Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:38 am ]
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Hi Robbie,
The grade of Sitka was 3A.
I used 800 grit paper to sand before finish.
The finish was Minwax urethane.
Don't get me wrong...it's not a disaster, it's just that some dark lines showed up that I did not see before the finish was applied.
The top now looks like a cheap quality, but it's a good top with tight grain and sounds great.
This may tuen out to be a great player but not such a good looker if you know what I mean.
Thanks
Author:  rlabbe [ Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:43 am ]
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Cheap quality???

When I took the french polish class with Marshall Brune, he showed me a way to intensify the grain using an egg white fill.

I'll never understand the steel string world.

Seriously, keep in mind that although you may not like the look, it'll ring the bell of plenty of other people.rlabbe38533.6138773148
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:07 am ]
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Walter, my guess is that the urethane product you used from Minwax has a high enough oil content that it darkened the top in the areas where it penetrated the wood more. Every company has their own recipe for varnishes and they vary greatly. just my 2 cents worth.
Author:  Don A [ Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:20 pm ]
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I'm with Michael in regard to top coloration. I like to see grain in the top. I've even got a couple of sets of strawberry and cream red cedar. The grain and color patterns can really add another dimension to the overall look. Lets face it, a lot of excellent wood gets passed over.
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