I was at least 18" maybe 24" but still cooked mine so be careful and most of all pay attention and check often till you get the hang of it. If your like me and think, well I'll just do this other thing while I'm waiting, use a timer.
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| KTM - can you speed the dry time? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=2463 |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:37 am ] |
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This may be one of those wishful thinking questions, but is there any way to speed up the drying time for KTM-9. I’m thinking about when I have to do small touch ups or when I accidentally sand through in a spot. I guess I’m just impatient and don’t like having to wait for it to cure properly. Josh |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:43 am ] |
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I used a inferred heat lamp, and put it about 18" from the surface, it never really got (hot) per say, but it did speed up the drying a bit. -- use caution -- |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:03 am ] |
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UV light. Black lights, due to very low level UV emissions are not very affective, but a high intensity UV like used on water pirification systems are. They produce almost no heat at 3+" and will speed both dry to touch time some and cure time to 4-5 days. I have a 14" long 25w that was my uv purifier for my main Koi pond. I now have a 50w system on the pond and use the 25w to aid cure time in the winter. If you use a high intensity UV light be sure to wear brazer's glasses when exposed to the light. I have mine set up in seperate cure room (really a closet)and turn it on and off from outside the room. A 25w system will run in the order of $100 for bulb and fixture and about $30 for replacement bulbs and you should get 2000 hrs from a bulb. I rotate the body and or neck 90 deg every day for 4 days and their cured. They are not as affective at speeding the dry to touch time but do speed it up some. |
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| Author: | John How [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:23 am ] |
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I used the IR lamps from my sons paint shop and cooked the finish on one of mine. The finish bubbled and the top seam came loose. I set it up per the instruction sheet, in fact I was conservative and set it back farther than called for. I never tried again after that. I just learned to be patient. |
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| Author: | Sprockett [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:33 am ] |
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Hmmmmm interesting Michael.. I may have to try that, I don't have a drying closet in the new space yet but I might just buy a cabinet for that purpose, I know Lance McCollum uses something similar with a foil enclosed box. Being that I'm now so short on time 4-5 days would be a godsend... -Paul- |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:40 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Sprockett] Hmmmmm interesting Michael.. I may have to try that, I don't have a drying closet in the new space yet but I might just buy a cabinet for that purpose, I know Lance McCollum uses something similar with a foil enclosed box. Being that I'm now so short on time 4-5 days would be a godsend... -Paul-[/QUOTE] I believe I got the idea from Frank Ford's site couple years ago. my light is over 36" away from the nearest part of the guitar but because it is a very high intensity light that is not an issue. Works good on curing epoxy as well. I don't know if the uv will be as effetive reflected of the foil or mirror, but I would think it would be. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:50 am ] |
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On this last neck that I did in KTM-9 I put it out in the sun for an afternoon. Baked the heck out of it. I was on vacation for the next week and didn't do anything until after that but when I came home is was hard as a rock. I know this isn't an option all the time but might work for you in the short term. |
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| Author: | Sprockett [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:59 am ] |
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Yeah that might work Paul, one interesting thing to note about KTM, this last one I just did sat for about 5 months and cured and I got all kinds of stories about how hard it would be to finish yada yada yada.. Well it sanded and polished out just fine and turned out really well, now I would not normally leave one that long but I didn't have much choice... -Paul- |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:20 am ] |
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UV won't cure KTM-9 any faster, since it's not a UV cured finish. However, as others have mentioned, the use of Infra-red lights, such as you would use in a bathroom ceiling heat lamp fixture, are the right ticket. They are even recommended by Grafted Coatings, the manufacturer of the KTM product line. I would recommend the distance Lance suggests, about 18" away. You don't want it to bake the finish, just bounce the heat rays off the wood and cure the finish from the inside out. |
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| Author: | John How [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:30 am ] |
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I was at least 18" maybe 24" but still cooked mine so be careful and most of all pay attention and check often till you get the hang of it. If your like me and think, well I'll just do this other thing while I'm waiting, use a timer. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:40 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Don Williams] UV won't cure KTM-9 any faster, since it's not a UV cured finish. However, as others have mentioned, the use of Infra-red lights, such as you would use in a bathroom ceiling heat lamp fixture, are the right ticket. They are even recommended by Grafted Coatings, the manufacturer of the KTM product line. I would recommend the distance Lance suggests, about 18" away. You don't want it to bake the finish, just bounce the heat rays off the wood and cure the finish from the inside out.[/QUOTE] I'm not doughting you Don but I have cured two KTM finishes with my uv light and they were hard as a rock in 4 days. I am by no means a finsh expert but it seems to have work for me. I don't know of any other factor that was applied to the two that could cause the results. Both sanded and buffed just fine, but now you got me curious as to how they cured so quickly if not the UV. |
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| Author: | rlabbe [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:07 am ] |
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[QUOTE=MichaelP] [QUOTE=Don Williams] UV won't cure KTM-9 any faster, since it's not a UV cured finish. However, as others have mentioned, the use of Infra-red lights, such as you would use in a bathroom ceiling heat lamp fixture, are the right ticket. They are even recommended by Grafted Coatings, the manufacturer of the KTM product line. I would recommend the distance Lance suggests, about 18" away. You don't want it to bake the finish, just bounce the heat rays off the wood and cure the finish from the inside out.[/QUOTE] I'm not doughting you Don but I have cured two KTM finishes with my uv light and they were hard as a rock in 4 days. I am by no means a finsh expert but it seems to have work for me. I don't know of any other factor that was applied to the two that could cause the results. Both sanded and buffed just fine, but now you got me curious as to how they cured so quickly if not the UV.[/QUOTE] If you go here you see the manufacturer is stating that KTM-9 will not cure under UV light. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:16 am ] |
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Wow Michael, Now you have me wondering if you're on to something? Could it be there's something to it??? I have no idea. I know the folks at Grafted Coatings have said that UV won't cure it, but if you had results...? Well, who the heck knows?!!!! But let me ask, when you say "cure", what exactly do you mean? Do you mean it hardens up and stops shrinking? That would be typical of KTM-9 to do that in that amount of time, to some degree. However, it continues to harden for several weeks past what we can readily see. |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:45 pm ] |
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Thanks guys! This has been interesting and helpful. I don't have room to build any kind of curing box at this time. So I guess I will just have to wait. I could try Pauls method and stick things out in the sun. But I really don't know how much of that I want to do. Hmmm..but maybe if I stuck my guitars outside it would start to rain...that would be a really good thing about now. Josh |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:01 am ] |
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Typicaly I wait the 30 days to buff out, but like I said two last winter I cured in the light room and seam to work at least good enough to buff. You may be right and they were hard but not truly cured. Neither have come back due to issues but I guess I need to do some more investigation before I profess this tech. with KTM. |
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| Author: | Jason [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:40 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Sprockett] Hmmmmm interesting Michael.. I may have to try that, I don't have a drying closet in the new space yet but I might just buy a cabinet for that purpose, I know Lance McCollum uses something similar with a foil enclosed box. Being that I'm now so short on time 4-5 days would be a godsend... -Paul-[/QUOTE] Paul if your going to go that route why not build a spinning one? When Larrivee was getting ready for his move to Cali he had a machinist in his (now gone) tonewood shop. He has this big spinning light box.. like a rotisserie (ya I can't spell) you can load like 4 or 6 guitars in it. His are for use with polyester finishes that cure in like an hour or something crazy fast like that but the same design would give you good light exposure if you used UV and nitro. Or you could even do a single guitar box with a single spinning spindle in the middle of it. would make sure exposure was super even and save you teh hassle of remembering to rotate it. |
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| Author: | matt81 [ Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:35 am ] |
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It is interesting for us at Grafted Coatings to be reading that some luthiers have been able to "cure" KTM-9 with a UV lamp. Without photo inhibitors in the product, we don’t see how it is possible to make the cure faster by UV. Maybe as one stated, the high intensity of the lamp does, etc... Let us know what kind of lamp/wattage/brand name/distance away for the uv to perform at suggested numbers as we will try to test it out ourselves. Normally we recommend IR to cure faster without hurting the product. matt Grafted Coatings, Inc. |
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| Author: | Sprockett [ Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:43 am ] |
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Ok so now I have the official word from Grafted, I'm going to use IR. I have two that I'm rushing to finish for HB and the finish is the part that will stop me at this point so I'll buy some IR lamps and give it a whirl... Thanks Matt.. -Paul- |
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| Author: | John How [ Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:22 am ] |
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Paul, head my warning above. You can do it but pay attention and be conservative or you'll be refinishing if not reglueing. Have fun. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:34 am ] |
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yes....keep those lamps a good distance away, and buy the lower wattage bulbs if you can. You don't want to burn it, which I have done too. |
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| Author: | Sprockett [ Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:50 am ] |
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I can't afford a mistake like that right now, I was going to get 2 and put them about 2-3 feet away (one on each side) and monitor it for awhile, but that should be more than far enough. -Paul- |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:55 am ] |
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[QUOTE=matt81] It is interesting for us at Grafted Coatings to be reading that some luthiers have been able to "cure" KTM-9 with a UV lamp. Without photo inhibitors in the product, we don’t see how it is possible to make the cure faster by UV. Maybe as one stated, the high intensity of the lamp does, etc... Let us know what kind of lamp/wattage/brand name/distance away for the uv to perform at suggested numbers as we will try to test it out ourselves. Normally we recommend IR to cure faster without hurting the product. matt Grafted Coatings, Inc.[/QUOTE] Brand name I could not give you off the top of my head ( I am at work) but it is 25W 14" long uv bulb and caseing (slightly modified) that was originly a water purafing system I believe the brand is Aquapure I will check when I get to the shop. That said I have to retact my original statement because the guitars I cured this way were not KTM-9. Sorry for the misslead but I reviewed my records and I was wrong. |
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| Author: | Don A [ Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:42 am ] |
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[QUOTE=MichaelP] That said I have to retact my original statement because the guitars I cured this way were not KTM-9. Sorry for the misslead but I reviewed my records and I was wrong.[/QUOTE] Reminds me of a quote from the movie Independence Day.....Oooops! 
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| Author: | matt81 [ Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:10 pm ] |
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Sprockett and others, When I get to work in the morning, I will list the specs of the IR lamps we have in-house that are used for quick drying - as someone stated above, you can still burn/bubble your finish, our product or someone elses if the conditions are not right. IR will fasten the cure time verses air dry and never extremely force any finish to fast as you can have problems down the road. matt |
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