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Black Acacia - Like Michaels Ovation
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=2846		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:16 am ]
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I hope you all had a look at Michael Payne's resurrection of an Ovation. He used Austrailian Blackwood, or Acacia. Basically Australian Koa. His post was timely in that a friend of mine cuts this wood in Australia and he and I have been talking about getting some it shipped over here. So here is the question. Is there any interest in this wonderful tone wood? If there is I will get some on it's way and work out a price schedule. It would probably take 2 or 3 months to get here. Also he is cutting some absolutely fabulous binding stock from some high flame Black Acacia. SO if I see interest I will pursue this further. Here are a couple of pictures of the sets I have on the way now for my own use(We traded some wood a while ago).




Thanks

Shane
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:26 am ]
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if the price is right i would be interested in both b&s and binding.
Author:  Pwoolson [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:31 am ]
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Yup,me too!
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:50 am ]
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Count me in too.
Thanks

Wade
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:57 am ]
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Oh yea. At the right price I would take at least a couple. I got to warn you though there are several independent tonewood dealers being very competitive with their Black Acacia. Be sure you can compete. It is none of my bee’s wax but 3A I can find from 100-150 4A 150-250. Just a thought before you jump. Let us know if go for it.
Author:  Dennis Leahy [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:20 am ]
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When he cuts sides and binding strips, it sure would be great to get something closer to 34" length, rather than the now typical 32".

32" just won't make it with some larger guitar designs with deep cutaways.

Hopefully, the bindings will look a lot like fiddleback Koa, without the Koa pricetag.

Dennis
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:33 am ]
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Keep in mind Dennis that Black Acacia will typically be a shade lighter or a little less red than Koa. More of a honey color. but with a little amber shellac on it I bet most of us would have a hard time telling the dif.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:38 am ]
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Thanks for your help here Michael. This might be a tough question so I won't hold ya to it but what grade would you think those sets in the photo are? I am thinking that the prices you quoted above are ballpark for what I was hoping I could do, once I got it here.

Dennis, I will let him know that 34 inches is better (better for me also!). The bindings won't be cheap either though in the $4 to $5 range per piece!!! But he claims he has just bought this incredible board but it was flat sawn so he is re-manning it into bindings. I would have to buy at least 100 pcs to make it worth while, but that is only 25 guitars....

Anyway...I am still considering all of this!

Shane
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:29 am ]
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[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] Thanks for your help here Michael. This might be a tough question so I won't hold ya to it but what grade would you think those sets in the photo are? I am thinking that the prices you quoted above are ballpark for what I was hoping I could do, once I got it here. [/QUOTE]

Shane, Don Willams sold me this set as grade 3A. Personaly I believe it was down graded only because there did not appear to be much curl in the boards and one very very tiny knot. However as you see once I got a bit shellac on it there was more curl than it appeared to have dry. The grain was tight and the runout was minimal, so if I was grading I would have graded as a 4A with 5A grading being Master grade.

By the way I believe I paid $115 for this set including thickness sanding and shippingMichaelP38580.6898842593
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:15 am ]
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Shane, I did not mention tap tone. This tapped as warm and full as any 4A Koa set I have ever built with, so I know that that was not the down grade.

I think Rick and Don had just got back from the pub when they graded it

Just kidding Don
Author:  Jason [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:05 am ]
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I'd also be interested in a few sets depending on price/quality. Do I see another OLF group buy in the works?
Author:  Don Williams [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:17 pm ]
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Shane,

Is your friend getting his lumber from Australia or Tasmania?
Apparently, the stuff from Tasmania is supposed to be better than the stuff from Australia.
Must be the smaller island soil.

I can't say that's true, but the stuff we got from Tasmania was pretty darn nice.
We're looking into getting more ourselves.
The toughest thing is the cost of shipping...it's almost as much as the wood itself.

Board form may be the most economical way of getting this wood.
Your friend would be able to get it to dimension form,
and those getting theirs from you could do their own resawing.
It resaws fairly easily.

Michael,
I know you think that wood is 4a, but seriously, it's nowhere as nice as this piece.
We've had some stuff in board form that will make your eyes bulge, and then you would
scratch your head in disbelief.
So, if the set on the guitar on my site is a 5A, yours would be a 3A. Make sense?
We were trying very hard to grade the stuff fairly.
If only the guy sending the stuff had been as fair with Rick.....long story.Don Williams38580.8899652778
Author:  GD Armstrong [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:42 pm ]
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I would also be interested. I even like the look of the non-figured Black Acacia.
A supply of thicker timbers for carved back instruments would be nice to have also.GD Armstrong38581.1143287037
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:23 pm ]
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Alright, I guess it's time to get the computer dudes in and clean this thing up!! I have been at it for three hours just to get you guys a picture of the set I have on hand. Another roll of digital film...GONE!

Don, I can't say that I would ever be able to say whether Acacia from Tasmania would sound better than Acacia from Australia or Hawaii. Some say that this wood sounds better than Koa (re: LMI's description on the net). But for clarification, my friend harvests from Northern Australia and he is also a guitar/weissenborn maker. This piece I have from him (I have a couple more sets in transit) has a lovely ring when tapped, the neighbors cows come a trudgin' if I do it outside. Actually I just compared it to some top grade East Indian Rosewood and this Acacia has a much 'fuller' sound to my ears and a bit deeper timbre. But that is so subjective I guess it's just whatever you are after. Anyway, my friend does a nice job cutting, as I am sure I could also do as he and I have discussed our respective operations but I think buying a plank on spec can be a little risky, especially when you add the time and cost of shipping because you never really know what you got until you open up the package, I notice that with almost every bolt of spruce I split and saw. But anyway I took a couple of photos of the set I have on hand (using it for my first guitar!). He claims this is not his best. What would the grade be? I don't know for sure but I like it. I just hit it with a quick coat of lacquer sealer.





This, along with the pictures at the beginning of this post, would be the expected quality. As you can see my photographic skills excel , so I could certainly post pictures or just send them directly to those interested, I guess, if I got my computer cleaned up, I could even set up a proper picture browser on my web site (hardly worth it for spruce as it is so hard to photograph with any amount of detail)

Anyway. Just a bit more food for thought. I'm leaning to getting something worked out before this wood gets too well known and becomes priced like Koa.

Thanks

Shane
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:07 am ]
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don, you are talking like a tasmanian! many in the island state refer to the mainland as australia, as though it is another country. be assured, tassie is part of australia.

as to the possible differences between wood of the same species from northern australia and tasmania, there well could be. the climates are vastly different; rainfall quantities and patterns, average temperatures, etc.crazymanmichael38581.3827314815
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:38 am ]
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[QUOTE=Don Williams]

Michael,
I know you think that wood is 4a, but seriously, it's nowhere as nice as this piece.
We've had some stuff in board form that will make your eyes bulge, and then you would
scratch your head in disbelief.
So, if the set on the guitar on my site is a 5A, yours would be a 3A. Make sense?
We were trying very hard to grade the stuff fairly.
If only the guy sending the stuff had been as fair with Rick.....long story.[/QUOTE]
Oh yea I saw the pics of the private stash Ou La La!!!! No I think it is better to down grade based on figure, than to over grade due to figure. My only point was that I had a very pleasant surprise after sealing the wood. JMO I think there is such a thing as too much curl, to the point that it just looks striped in stead of iridescent. I have a Koa top that is that way. So many curls per inch that it overwhelms the natural grain of the wood
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:18 am ]
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Shane that's a really nice set. 4A all the way. I reserve 5A for eye-popping, drool-forming figure and color only. Very nice. If that's what you're going to be bringing in, you shouldn't have any issues selling it. Just keep your costs/prices as low as you can. DOn't expect to get rich, because the market will only allow for so much of the stuff to be sold. Maybe a few years it will be the most sought-after wood for guitars. Time will tell.
Author:  Mjoy [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:08 am ]
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I'm interested in b&s sets, also.
Author:  PaulB [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:15 am ]
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Crazyman is right again. Tassy is part of Australia whether the inhabitants like it or not.

As to the differences between mainland blackwood and tassy blackwood, it's all Acacia melanoxylon. Tassy has a cold climate, cold as in regular light snowfalls in winter, not cold cold as in Canada (where the ground freezes!). On the mainland it's hotter and wetter especially in the north where it can also be hot and very dry, depending on how close you are to the desert. So my thinking is that colder climate results in less annual grow as does a very hot dry climate. Having said that, my stash has all come from tassy simply because it's more available possibly due to less logging of the old growth stuff over the years.
Author:  BlueSpirit [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:56 pm ]
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For the right price, you can count me in also.
Doug
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:56 am ]
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I talked with my friend in Australia yesterday. I have some samples coming so we have a larger number of sets to look at. They will be here in 3 to 6 weeks. From that I can determine quality and put a price together. Once they arrive I will sand them, spray them, price them and we can go from there!

It seems there is certainly enough interest to keep moving forward with this. It is GREAT wood!

Thanks
Shane
Author:  KiwiCraig [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:11 pm ]
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A big G'day from down under.

Hey guys and gals,,, This stuff is very very very bad for your health. To those who use it.......Good Luck! (cough)

      Kiwi
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:36 am ]
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Hey Kiwi,

So is walking across the rush hour traffic in New York(or any city for that matter)!! But these are the hazards of the work we do!! It sure is gorgeous though.

Shane
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