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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:06 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Thought I'd share with you all my latest creation that a happy customer (see picture!)picked up this afternoon. Not in the leauge of some of the fabulous guitars posted here but I'm very pleased with it. Its a baritone (the third I've made)with 28.9" scale in bearclaw European Spruce/ Cuban Mahogany, koa bindings, snakewood fingerboard/end graft, and snakewood/fiddleback ash headstock venners and heelcap. The guitar has a side soundport and is finished in Tru-oil over French Polish on the body, and Tru-oil on the neck.

This one is set up for B-B tuning but these are versatile guitars and strung with mediums (0.013"-0.056") can be tuned C-C and with lights (0.012"-0.053") tuned D-D - all great fun!







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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:14 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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That's really nice work, Dave. How thick is the body on a baritone?

Ron

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:18 am 
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Dave! Love that shape! Nice guitar all around !

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:19 am 
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Koa
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Dave Congrat's...
What a beautiful guitar...I love it!!
Nice job.
Walter


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:19 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Dave

It looks an absolute beauty, and judging by the look on your customers face he loves it.

Beautiful Work

Russell


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:25 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Dave, what a nice guitar! Love that body shape!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:39 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=old man] That's really nice work, Dave. How thick is the body on a baritone?

Ron[/QUOTE]

Ron,

Not sure what you mean by how thick. The maximum depth of the body is 4 5/8" and the lower bout width is 15 3/4". The top is thicknessed as I normally do for most guitars with Euro - about 0.12" in the centre thinned to around 0.08" at the sides and back of the lower bout.

Lance/Dave - thanks, O love "curvy" guitars!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:44 am 
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Dave,
That is a real beauty...I love the headstock,rosette, and bridge design ( and of course all the snakewood).
How does the cuban Mahog sound? Also you said you F.P. and then finished with Tru-oil. I thought T.O. worked best on bare wood. Please detail your process. I have a gallon of T.O. and am planning on using it on my next. Keep up the beautiful work!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:51 am 
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That looks great!

Now for a stupid question....

What makes a "baritone" guitar a baritone guitar??????

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:55 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=Don Williams] That looks great!

Now for a stupid question....

What makes a "baritone" guitar a baritone guitar??????[/QUOTE]

Don,

Largely scale length and the ability to tune down. Some argue that you only get to "true" baritone at 30+" scale length with the guitar tuned down A-A; others call 26.5" scale length "baritones". After a lot of research and in particular the guitar built by Linda Manzer for Pat Meheny I settled on 28.9" (735mm) and think that this gives a good compromise of playability and the deep rich baritone sound.

Dave,

Cuban Mahogany sounds fabulous - my favourite definition is that it is a mahogany with aspirations to be a Rosewood. It gives all of the great things you expect from mahogany - good clarity of notes across strings and some of that woodiness, but also has a lot of the good rosewood traits with great overtones, sustain and a really lush "spacy" sound. Plus it is gorgeous to look at and works really well. The stuff I use is plantation grown in Micronesia - I believe sustainably - by a family that has been doing it for generations - but it is definitely swietenia mahogoniiand although it comes from small trees the wood is perfect for guitar making. I get it from the US from Blue Moon Exotics run by Tobias Basilius - a real gentleman, check them out BlueMoon.Combined with Euro spruce it is my "dream team".

I have been using Tru-oil for a long time but given linseed oil is one of it's components I was worried that it may penetrate into tops and "kill tone" over time. I'm now convinced this isn't the case as I have another baritone finished with just Tru-oil that I built over a year and a half ago and the tone just keeps getting better and better. Also I have had to do some "ding" repairs and the finish is just sitting on the wood surface. However, I experimented with a FP finish and then adding a few coats of Tru-oil on top on the basis that the FP would stop any penetration, and the Tru-oil wood add more resistance to sweat and other "attacks" on the FP but still retain the benifits of fairly easiy repairability that comes with FP and Tru-oil. I like the look of this finish (it's not bullet proof and certainly not the "wet fish" looks you'll get from nitro or KTM9) and it is holding up well so far. I am in the process of documenting my process for another interested builder and will post it in the next week or so. Tru-oil on necks that have been micromesh "polished" up to 12000 is the greatest playing sensation I have found.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:04 am 
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A Baritone guitar is tuned from a third to fifth or (more lower for open tuning) than standard tuning which is made possible by the longer scale length.

There is no set scale length that is used for Baritone guitar but there are a few common lengths that builders that have had success with Baritones use of which the 28.9" used above works quite well.

If you take a standard length scale and drop the tuning more than a fourth or so, it can get very sloppy in terms of intonation depending on how the strings are pulled. A longer scale length allows the action and intonation to stay relatively the same but provides a bottom end that really makes a difference for some fingerstyle playing.

Speaking of Baritone guitars there is a really good interview with Pat Metheny in this months issue of Fingerstyle Magazine in which he talks about the Baritone that Linda Manzer made for him.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:06 am 
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Nice Baritone...I especially like the look of the narrow waist. The stylistic use of snakewood is a nice touch also and helps to unify the whole design.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:01 am 
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Koa
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Dave,
Fantastic job! I plan to make a baritone in maybe the 5th or 6th guitar. I love playing in altered tunings, and this would give me the opportunity to tune down the top strings to get that really great bass without the buzz. I really got excited about it when I read the article in Fingerstyle Magazine, and have since bought Pat Metheny's new album "One Quiet Night". It is just him on the baritone guitar that Linda Manzer built. The sound is haunting and beautiful. Fantastic album for sitting quietly while you are contemplating your next move in your guitar building process
I'm sure I'll be asking you lots of questions next year.
Tracy


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:01 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Great job Dave,I love baritones and yours is one of the nicest I've seen!Very good work!!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:54 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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That's what I meant, Dave. So what makes it a baritone? How does it differ from, say, a standard dred?

Ron


Never mind, my questions have now been answered.
Thanks, anyway.old man38593.8753125

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:24 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Nice!

Would you happen to have a few shots of the bracing scheme? Thoughts on that?

I've got my first baritone (Khaya/Italian spruce) waiting for binding, braced it fairly 'standard' because I figured, well, if it doesn't work, I can route the top off and replace it. Be out about 30 bucks, no biggie.

Question: most baritones I've seen, as well as the electric baritone I've built, use significantly heavier string sets (.015-.070 for lights, .016-.080 for mediums with scales varying from 27" to 29"). Dave Berkowitz uses the lighter of the two, I believe, and at least on his first also used a JLD Bridge Doctor (although I haven't bothered to ask him (yet) about what he's using now). I'm going to build myself another, for personal use, so more opinions are always welcome!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:56 pm 
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Dave that is a very elegant looking baritone. Beautiful work. Love the wood combo.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:17 am 
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[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] Nice!

Would you happen to have a few shots of the bracing scheme? Thoughts on that?

Question: most baritones I've seen, as well as the electric baritone I've built, use significantly heavier string sets (.015-.070 for lights, .016-.080 for mediums with scales varying from 27" to 29"). Dave Berkowitz uses the lighter of the two, I believe, and at least on his first also used a JLD Bridge Doctor (although I haven't bothered to ask him (yet) about what he's using now). I'm going to build myself another, for personal use, so more opinions are always welcome![/QUOTE]

Matte,

Here’s a couple of pictures of the guitar’s top bracing.



I brace it in the normal pattern I would for any of my guitars. You are looking to get the top moving as much as possible in the “right” way and heavy bracing won’t help here!. With baritones, the string tension shouldn’t be different from a more normal scale guitar. What you do is find heavier strings for the longer scale length that give the same tension. It’s not like you are building a 12 string or something like that. The body I use (and bridge position) is the same as for my 12 fret body join guitar with 25.75” scale length.

The real area you need to pay attention to is saddle angle and compensation, particularly on the lowest strings. I was able to play with the first baritone I made by sliding extra pieces of bone behind the saddle I had done to find out where the intonation worked. As you will see from the pictures of the guitar I have just made, the back slant needs to be a lot more than normal to get the 5th and 6th strings to intonate properly. You also have to take this into your bridge design as you can end up with steep string ramps. The compensation will obviously vary with the scale length.

There are a couple of interesting principles that I have observed with baritones.

The first one is to put different sets of string gauge on and then work out how many half steps down you tune them to get back to tensions similar to lights (or mediums if you prefer) on a more normal (25.4" say) scale guitar. The longer the scale length the more options you have. On my guitar his means that with a set of lights (0.012"-0.053") you go down a step D-D, with mediums (0.013"-0.056") down one and a half steps to C-C and with heavies (0.014"-0.059") down two whole steps B-B.

The second principle is the scale length of the guitar when capoed at the second fret - which if the guitar is a 14 fret body join turns it to a 12 fret body join equivalent. For the scale lengths quoted above plus mine you get the following:

14 fret scale/ 12 fret scale (i.e capo II)
29" / 25.75"
28.3" /25.3"
28" / 24.9"
27.5" / 24.5"
26.5" / 23.5"

These are some interesting and familiar 12 fret scale lengths. If you combine this with the set of strings used for the one step tune down, then playing with these and the guitar Capoed at the second fret you are playing different 12 fret guitars with light gauge strings in E-E tuning. In the case of a 26.5" scale it would be like playing a 12 fret parlour guitar.

As for the “best” string gauges, this is the Holy Grail for Baritones and I’m still searching – especially the lowest string. It’s bit like acoustic basses, go to thick and you lose that nice tone but get a stiffer string. On the B-B I’ve gone as low as 0.075”, but currently like 0.066” which is slacker but gives a nicer sound to my ears. For my scale length guitar heavies work, although the 6th works better with say an 0.066” on, or what I currently do is buy a set of D’Addario EJ 15’s, take out the 0.011” and add an 0.066” for the bottom string. This gives 0.014”, 0.023”w, 0.030”, 0.039”, 0.047”, 0.066”. I like the feel of the wound second but a plain 0.018” or 0.019” would work well.

Hope this all makes sense and helps.


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De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:27 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Dave: food for thought, thanks! I my first baritone is the second acoustic I've ever built, so I'll have to wait and see how it turns out. It's braced to what I think looks/feels 'normal', with a fairly thin top, so I'll have to wait and see how it sounds. I'll base my compensation at the saddle on the electric (with acoustic bridge) bari I made, since it ended up intonating dead-on with the string set I'm using, and 'cause the scale length is the same.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:39 am 
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Mattia,

Look forward to seeing some pictures - I'm sure it will sound great. What scale length is it?

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". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:41 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=Dave White] Mattia,

Look forward to seeing some pictures - I'm sure it will sound great. What scale length is it?[/QUOTE]

when I get it bound, finished, polished, assmebled and set up, sure. Now, to find the time...

It's about a 28.9" scale, IIRC (extrapolated a couple of frets in addition to a 25.5" scale, which I've got a template for..)


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