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Lately I've been taking a hard look at where my guitar building has taken me, and where it may or may not be going. I'm giving serious thought to calling it quits as far as building for anything more than an occasional hobby. It takes a serious toll on my finances, and creates more stress than I can honestly handle. So I'm going to be shutting down my website and building, and giving it all a rest for a few months and see how life is at the end of that time. I suspect I will continue to a tiny degree as a hobby, but sometimes you have to cut your losses and know when it's time to go a different direction. I think I'm there.Don Williams38613.3525

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Is this a "there's no money in it" issue, or a "my guitars are just not good enough" issue?

Whichever the case, I think it is unfortunate that you have decided to go this route. Your guitars are really nice.

I become increasingly convinced that it is nearly impossible to leave a well paying job to pursue the lutherie thing full time. And as more factories continue to spit out decent guitars on an exponential curve, the Chinese are coming online with better quality guitars, etc. This only makes it harder and harder pursue a career change.

For me though... it is not about the money (yes, I would like to make a profit on the guitars I sell....) but it is more about creating something of lasting quality and value that can take on a life of its own... something tangible. So much of what I do professionally has a shelf life of a year or two (or less) that it is nice to think of a product that will survive and provide enjoyment to others.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Don..Don..Don!!

Do you know what the real problem is with manufacturing any product?
I'll tell you..
It's called MARKETTING!!
The ability to sell the products, in this case guitars.
It's the single most difficult aspect of being in business for yourself. You're not selling hot dogs on the neighborhood corner!!
How do you think the major guitar manufacturers feel?
Guild (the former American Co.),
Martin & Co. and others that have to compete now the the Chineese and Koreans. Those American guitar Co's have even taken their work force to foreign countries. It's a blasted shame.
You guys on this forum who have dedicated their lives and hard work to develop skills in order to make Lutherie their sole means of support are Gladiators of bravery!!
I know first hand..I was in the exotic leather business for several years and made some of the finest products money could buy..Did I survive? Hell NO. Why?
Because of foreign manufacturing. Even their products were not nearly as good as mine.

I was a marketting consultant many years ago for several types of busineses. What was their problem? They did'nt know how to market their products properly.
Sure, it takes money to make money.
You must look at this guitar making business realistically!! Ask yourself some realistic questions.
1. Do you just want your income to supplement your existing income? If so, how much do you want to make monthly, annually?]
2. How am I going to get there?
3. How much money can you honestly invest in promotional funds?
And there's more questions too!!

I believe there should be a coop program to assist those Luthiers so they can get their guitars in the hands of potential buyers and not those just in their own state.
It can be done with a lot of work. You and the rest of the forum members that are interested must think BIG, but in a smaller realistic fashion.

You're not quitting...you're just discouraged.
Now get back to work and let's all think about marketting
with another post soon.

Kind regards, Walter

Good points Brock.

I do what I do because it's love baby! It in me, and I just gotta do it. I want the most gorgeous looking and sounding guitar(s) I can get my hands on. And I want to the satisfaction of building it (them)I hope one day it'll feed me, as I've fed it. But I must plant the seeds first. Invest before I withdraw. And in some case, like Don's, go inside awhile as the seeds germinate and just wait. We love you Don, and if there's a support group for you, this is it

Don,

Please tell us more about how you are feeling and what you are thinking. What can we do to help you? Is this a place where the Luthier's Showcase could be of assistance?

We are here to help!

Jeff

It's not about marketing, it's about the stress, both financially and emotionally. There are other things going on in my life, like working a job that pays too little, is too far away for my gasoline budget, and with the Boss from Hades.
It's all too much. I need a refuge from the stress, not more of it. For me, it either needs to be a career change I'm working toward, or a relaxing hobby that helps me to recover from life's stresses, which is why I started. Then you get Dollar $igns in your head, and start thinking about making money doing it. Then it all changes, and it's not the same anymore.
I think Brock is right when he says it's nearly impossible to leave a job to change to a lutherie career. I'm not even sure (at this stage of my life) that it is wise to even be considering it.

Don Williams38610.590462963

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I feel your pain, Don. And you may well be making the best decision. I
know the frustration of seeing cases filled with the art into which you
have poured your heart (not to mention your money) keep lining up. It
does seem clear to me that we are at a point where the number of people
trying to be professional luthiers is well in excess of what the market will
support, and a substantial number will leave. While it's true that if
someone's work is good and if they devote a good deal of time and
money to marketing, in time the sales will likely be there, that's a lot of
time and money and one has to evaluate how best to spend it. And to
decide what you are really in the game for. If your cousin isn't a famous
performer, you need a lot of endurance to go with a lot of investment. Is
the return worth the cost? Will you be satisfied with doing this as a
hobby? A personal decision.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Don

As another guy who attempts to do this for a living, I think I understand where you are coming from.

I love the work and I am never happier than when I am in my workshop, I feel truely blessed to be able to do this for work, but the down side of this is in truth if I make 1/5 of what I used to make, I will be lucky this year.

Sometimes as well when you take something you love doing as a hobby and try to do it as a proffesion, the juggling of deadlines can squeeze out the enjoyment.

To be commercially sucessful I guess in any business you have to give the customer what they want, and sometimes this is at odds with what you really want to make (or though many customers allow alot of artistic licence).

When something goes wrong (and sometimes you seem to just get runs where nothing is happening right) you can get very down and stressed about it.

When I was building for hobby if something went wrong, I could just redo it, now if it happens I've several customers to reshuffle and disappoint while I redo it.

All of this sounds I guess negative, but there are of course many positives. I love working for myself, doing something that feeds my soul, and being away from a corporate enviroment.

RussellRussellR38610.599537037

Don one thing is for sure you need to get as much stress as you can out of your life. Stress nearly did me in and now I realise that I am suseptable and must stay away from anything that causes stress. Though we will all miss seeing your works in process I think we need to respect what's best for you, so all I can say is best of luck to you and I pray you tame the tiger.

Don I feel particularly sad about this turn of events. I remember very well our e-mail exchanges when you decided to start this building venture. I understand your stress and if it means to revert to building for a hobby and relaxation with an occasional sale then that's the route to take. You certainly don't need that kind of strees in your life. Love your work.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Take a break Don, but don't go too far away. We like hearing from you. Be sure to show us what your working on because you and I know you'll be working on something before long.John How38610.6292592593

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Don:
Sorry to hear it. but I can understand the way you feel. Thirty+ years ago when I started it was tough in some ways (who can forget the oil crisis and recession?) but the competition wasn't what it is now, either. I look at the work the new guys are turning out (and you're one of 'em!) and think of how long it took me to approach that level. I don't see how anybody could dream of starting out now unless they were supremely self-confident, and had the chops to back it up. The chops you certainly have, but that level of self confidence is rare in the world.

Back when I was in high school I had a friend who was a wonderful pianist. I used to go to his house just to listen to him practice Rachmanninof or Tchaikovsky. His interpretations were unlike any others I've heard, and, in many ways, leave the recordings I know of sounding 'flat'. He chose to stop playing because he couldn't face the pressure and the critcs, and I've always felt it was a sad loss to music.

So I hope you can keep building at some level. Maybe when you get past the need to make a living at it you can develop the unique vision that you have.

Don,
As someone who had considered "going pro" and rejected it, I have a bit of advice. First, finish any commisions your may have. After all, a promise is a promise. Second, make it your hobby. Build when you feel like it and don't build when you don't feel like it. After all, it is a hobby that you do for enjoyment. Third, try not to spend too much money on the hobby. I think that you have a large stock of tonewoods. Certainly enough to supply a few years worth of instruments. I suspect that you have all the tools you need as well. Fourth, build instruments that YOU want that meet some design or sound objective.

You have no one to please but yourself. When the instruments start to accumulate sell a few. Don't expect too much money for them. You're not trying to make much profit anyway. Put them on consignment at a high-end music store. Someone will like them.

I've played a few of your instruments and I think that they are as good as anybody's. But, as it has been said many times before, having a great product ain't enough. It certainly isn't where most of the work is. I used to visit Julius Borges' shop regularly and only once was he actually working on a guitar when I arrived. All other times he was either on the phone with a customer or he was out taking care of some other business issue. Running a business is a full time job. Making guitars is a full time job. To do both, you're going to have to work a double shift.

So, I support your decision. Have fun with lutherie and change your business cards to "Don Williams, Gentleman Luthier"

Don,
Only you know what's best for you.
When you said the word "quit", I freaked out!
I can't help it. I wish I had a lot of money, I would give you a sack full and help eleviate the stress. I'm in the same boat to some extent except my health is awful. So I'm broke and sick too! It's Hell for sure.
You will make the right decision I know. Just don't leave us.

My prayers and best wishes to you Don.

Walter

Thanks folks for the kind words, I really appreciate them. I'm not going anywhere, like I said I still want to continue it as a hobby.

[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] Third, try not to spend too much money on the hobby. I think that you have a large stock of tonewoods. Certainly enough to supply a few years worth of instruments. [/QUOTE]

Mike, it would be more appropriate to say that I have enough wood to build full-time for several years. Maybe enough to supply a small factory. I have probably (read: easily) 100 b&s sets around in one form or another.       
"Too much" might actually be an appropriate phrase here.

I don't have any commissions currently, so that's a plus. No stress there.

Don Williams38610.6985069444

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

What a downer for all of us.
Even if you stop building (for a while), don't leave the forum, Don. We need your wit and wisdom.
I was into "fine-art" photography for 20 years, lugging around a big view camera and having art shows all around. I dearly loved it. Soon everyone I knew wanted me photographing their children and their weddings, etc. That wasn't why I took pictures. After a while I gave away my cameras and quit. Some regrets, but not many. My other love is woodworking of all types, creating what I want and not for the market. The artist in me doesn't need sales, just acceptance. I never want to do a hobby professionally because the demands of others and the need to please everyone but yourself is overwhelming. The fun, the very reason for building disappears. My goal is to build two of the finest instruments I can possibly make to give to my two sons.

Back off for a while, like you said, reevaluate, and whatever you decide, remain with us on the forum.
I don't even know you except for this forum, but, man, I hurt when you hurt. We all do.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Alan Carruth, what a great response and words of wisdom!!   
Probably every one of us has already faced or will have to face a decision like Don's sooner or later.
Somewhere I read a quote by a famous luthier,(don't ask me where and who it was cause I can't remember,) that when it comes right down to it, it's just a guitar.
These words are probably very controversial and I'm sure evoke strong emotions and opinions but is it really worth the divorce, the lack of money, the energy invested etc? You know where I'm coming from, enough said.
Peace and happiness to you Don!    

"I don't even know you except for this forum, but, man, I hurt when you hurt. We all do."

Don,

Ron took the words out of my mouth! I am feeling for you as well and I wish you every success in your decision.

All the best

Shane

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Canada

I don't make guitars to make lots of money, but I do turn in a bit of profit by consigning guitars to local shops. I deal stricty on the local level and would actually turn down a consignment. I can build exactly what I want to build and at the pace I choose, this keeps it fun. I do zero marketing and have no web site. Don't give it up Don, use it for stress relief after a day with the boss from hades.    

Don I totally understand and wish you well...

I have been forced to stop a number of times for other things going on and always miss it, I think you will find after a few months that it will be calling to you.
I stopped for a while and am just starting back up but I'm using this time to innovate and refine some of my ideas and techniques.

Go take some time off, enjoy your family, do some things others would think are stupid (like watching a CSPAN marathon of congress arguing over some bill you've never heard of ;)

Then when your ready... come back slowly and play as you build, experiment, try weird things. You'll get the fire back eventually

It's a very crowded market out there right now, it's hard to get noticed and make a name for yourself. I intend to be doing this for a very long time so I'm not in a hurry, if I don't make money at it this year (hell I'm not sure I ever will) then there's the next 20 or so

Cheers

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

Don,

Great outpouring of people here wishing you well. You can add me to the list. Whatever you do though, don't stop making guitars. Make them for yourself instead of for a living if need be, but don't deprive yourself by not putting your talent to use.

And don't stop posting on this forum either! I like reading your posts.

best wishes,
Joshua

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Don

I was too busy rambling on earlier, that I forgot to pass on my warmest wishes

May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face;
the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of His hand.


Russell

Don, coming off of Healdsburg, most of us that didn't sell so well (oh, I guess that would be ME) felt a lot of what you are feeling. Big time burnout from months of preperation, the humiliation of not coming home with a handful of cash, the blow to one's pride that for some reason my stuff wasn't as good as others'. It's really hard to fight through that. Sometimes you need to refocus (which it sounds like where you are right now) and that's great. I think you'll come back, be it a hobby or a full fledged biz, who cares. If you aren't loving what you do, then you are making the right decision to step back for awhile.
I tried to quit once when I was really down on myself. My wife said, "the heck you will! Do you have any idea how much money I have invested in that business. Now get out there and make some sawdust!"
Don, if there is stress in your life, don't add to it by worrying if you are doing the right thing. Just step back. If you never return to it, well, I guess it was the right decision. If you do, well, it was the break you needed.
Don't be a stranger, you're amongst friends here.
Best wishes. Paul

Paul

Don,
I don't know you very well. But from the time we talked at ASIA and your input here, I certainly have come to respect you and your opinion(s). Only you know what's best for you. Do what you need to do...You can always come back. Sometimes it's good to step back and take a breath/look. Most important is your health. Without your health you can't do anything. I found out the hard way how stress affects your health and just how important good health is. Take a break, relax and recoup. Be well my friend.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"