Official Luthiers Forum!

Yesterday there was a good discussion on saddle compensation and using
a peterson tuner to fine tune the saddle breakpoint. I have no problem
about the use of fretted tones and harmonics to dial in the compensation
with the use of the tuner. My question is placement of the bridge/saddle
so that you can get to that point.
Do most of you use a saddlematic or some predetermined distance like
Cumpiano. (He uses 0.15 over the 2x scale length) to place the bridge in
the first place. Or do you glue on a bridge without a saddle slot and try
to tune in the precise saddle location. If you do the latter, how do you do
it. I am concerned that I might not get the preslotted bridge glued on in
an accurate enough of a location that I will be able to fine tune in each
string with the strobe tuner etc.
Thanks again
Andy

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Andy, I use an IBEX Fret rule to get in the ball park, I slot my bridge first, the locate and place it using this method. Then I can fine tune by moving the crown of the 1/8" saddle forward or back. Some use a wider saddle for better control and more wiggle room.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Andy I pre-slot my bridges and use a machine shop altered saddlematic. It has a screw on piece that sets in the saddle slot for better fir up control. I found the little pins to be a pain in the south forty (Texas lingo) though my intent is to get as close as possible with the bridge glue down, I don't mentally think that way. I use a 5/32 saddle and when I start intonation, mentally I assume everything will need adjustment. That way I will always believe what the meter is telling me.

Okay, guys, here's what's ferting up my mind: You've got your saddle in the slot, ready for fine-tuning the intonation. The saddle has to be at the finished height so you're getting the correct string stretch. The saddle has to be shaped, so you can get a clear pitch when you're checking against the meter. If you then change where the string lies, by moving the break point forward or back, that string will end up lower than the rest, because you've had to shape the saddle, putting the string at the high point to start! Am I right? If you then shave the height of the other strings to match, you've lowered the action, which, it seems to me, would change the intonation. What am I missing?

I leave a .08" flat on the saddle to start the process.It is true that the pitch is not pure as I start the process but it is good enough to get the ball rolling because unlike the nut the string is only resting on the intersecting quaderant of the string cylinder and has no chance of being bound. As the process goes along the break point a true radius. Any height loss is so minimal you would not be able to measure except maybe at the 1st fret, and then we are talking .002"-.005"

Here is how I do it, I may actually post some pics on this the next time I do one...

A couple of things first...

1. When gluing on the saddle I use the saddlematic when I can, if not (like on fanned frets) I measure out the distance where the compensation point *should* be(it never is exactly).

2. I pull the saddle forward by about 1/32", what I'm doing is assuring that I have saddle to file back to bring it into proper intonation. It will be sharp when you check the intonation but I use wide saddles so I have room to move it back.

3. I glue the brige on and fit everything up as normal.

Now here is where the fun begins.....

I first make sure I'm using the same strings and tunings that the guitar is going to get, I lower the nut and saddle until I'm just on top of having the action correct (within a 64th), I don't worry about the saddle buzzing I just want the action almost there.

Now take a piece of wire (I use the end of a 6th string), peel off some of the outer wire and bend it over so you have a little L with the ball end sticking up. Tune down the 6th string and place the wire end of the little tool under you string and bring it back up to pitch. Now check your intonation and move the wire as needed until you are spot on, on most guitars I can do this without tuning down. Once you have it set, take a sharp pencil and mark on each side of the tools wire.

Rinse, repeat until you get all six strings...

Now take your saddle and file it so that you JUST remove the pencil lines on each side, from here I normally smooth everything over and polish and string the guitar back up.

You should now be intonated correctly and can fine tune the action....

The great part about doing this is that you don't have to keep removing the saddle, you set your intonation using the wire as the saddle point, this is just like the little jig that SM sales but free!!

On the last fanned fret, we did this and got the saddle correct in one step. When we re-installed the saddle after filing it, the guitar was perfect and intonation was spot on.

If you need some visuals on this I can try to grab some quick photo's tonight...

Cheers

-Paul-Sprockett38617.6923842593

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

OUUU Paul I like this process. Yes posst pics

Michael and Paul...Thanks very much. I guess I'm probably too hung-up mentally on the concept of "thousanths" and am just overthinking the process.

Yeah it happens, on the latest guitar which was a fanned fret there was one fret that was not spot on, you could see it if you looked really hard. But when playing it I could never hear or find it, it wasn't off my much, just enough that my eye could catch that the spacing was odd compared to the frets around it.

I intonate with a peterson tuner, but to be honest most people who play don't even notice, so I've become less worried about it (not that I don't care mind you). After all when we compensate we are really choosing a happy medium, all that matters is if your ears can hear it or not...

Cheers

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

Don't for a min. think I am going to let you off the hook....We want Pics of your little intonation tool.

I've been using the system Paul talks about for a long time, and it works great. I use a piece of B string, and the difference in the intonation from dropping the bridge top by that small amount is never noticable. The other thing I do differently is to mark the string line, not mark on either side of it as he does. I'm never comfortable filing off the line.

This system _really_ pays of with 12-strings, BTW. you find the two lines for the fundamental and octave strings, and file down the space in between with a three-square file. Then take off the front and back edges of the bridge to leave the lines. Last, use a small round file to notch out the ridge that the string isn't supposed to touch, just under the string. I find I need to start with a saddle about 3-16" wide to get everything to come out right. The octave G will need almost no compensation. It's really nice to play a 12 when all the strings are in tune all the way up the neck.

How do you get a mark dead on the string line? It would seem to me, a mark on each side of the tool wire is possible, but the actual center of the tool wire is hidden by that tool wire. Am I missing something?MichaelP38618.7171180556

When I do it the tool wire gets bent, so it's easy to mark the location. That's what I get for using a thin wire.....

got It

After attending Mike Doolin's intonation workshop at Healdsburg, I'm convinced there is no way to intonate a guitar spot-on. Everything is a compromise and as long as your reasonably meticulous (is that an oxymoron?) you should be fine.

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Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com

[QUOTE=Jimmy Caldwell] After attending Mike Doolin's intonation workshop at Healdsburg, I'm convinced there is no way to intonate a guitar spot-on. Everything is a compromise and as long as your reasonably meticulous (is that an oxymoron?) you should be fine.[/QUOTE]

Very true, and then you can mess the whole thing up by the way you tune each string to pitch. Never use a meter for each string. Use the method I've given elsewhere on the forum to tune each string to the top e and the resulting temper up the board will be improved. Just by retuning a number of people's guitars my way I've cured a lot of their "intonation" problems!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.