| Official Luthiers Forum! http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| Build time--how many man hours? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=3443 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | John Elshaw [ Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I'm just curious, approximately how many hours do each of you spend to complete one guitar, not including finishing or finish prep work? I'm mostly curious about actual build time, not time spent making jigs, shopping for wood, etc. I don't think including finish time would be appropriate because there is probably a very large difference in time spent depending on the method, materials, etc. Cheers! John |
|
| Author: | arvey [ Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I ussually tell people it takes me 80+ hours to build a guitar which includes finish (I french polish everything) but depending on the special features and inlay it can take a lot more than that. Building the jigs etc adds a lot of time but so does just enjoying the experience.  I did build one guitar in 4 days. I already had the sides bent and top and back joined but the rest, including finish was done in just uder 4 days. Of course those were 12-14 hour days.
|
|
| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I usually use a safe estimate of about 100 hours including the finish process and full final set up, but it can readily run well under that on a conservatively adorned guitars or well over on an ornately adorned one. I have a funny story about my flash build effort back in 1995. A player friend of mine came to me with his heavily dameged Takamine and asked if I could have the top rebuilt and the side near the neck joint repaired by the Satruday coming and it was Wednesday at this time. I said that It would be impossible for me to fit it in so he asked if there was anything I was able to do to have a guitar in his hands by Saturday afternoon when he packed up to head of to his gig. Well, I didn't commit my self completely, but said I would try something that I'd been planning for some time as an experiment.....to build an entire guitar using CA glue for all of the joints with the exception of the bridge to top joint. I got to work the next morning at about 5 on it and by noon had the body close and the binding on. Every joint...sides to blocks, kerfed linig to sides and top and back to linings were done with CA glue and hit heavily with accelerator to really push the time envelope on this experiment. The rosette lines were pressed onto their slots and the tortoise style bndings and purflings were taped into place when thin viscosity CA glue was dripped in to secure it all t the top, back and sides. A quick levelling of all of the plastic and sinding to clean it all up reasonably for this project brought me to the neck's fabrication. I had several neck blanks that had been roughed to fairly close to a finished profile and a slotted fingerboard that wasnlt committed to an order so they were scooped up for the effort. I used my arbor press and fretted the board with my standard wire, snipped of the ends and went to the belt sander to flush them with the sides of the board and bevel them all on one fell swoop on that machine. The board was then attached to the neck using thick viscosity CA glue and clamped for a grand total of five minutes before the truss rod was used to pull it straight and have it ready for levelling after the neck was joined to the body using my typical mortise and tenon joint CA glued and bolted with one 1/4"-20 brass bolt and threaded insert. The joint was nicely set even without alot of attention the approach angle so there was good dimensions for the bridge and saddle consideration. There was no finish being applied at all to the guitar since it was an R&D effort as well as a rushed solution to a friend's problem situation. The bidge was glued to the top and positioned for proper intonation. A little more time was spent on these dimensions to ensure that it could be played in tune if all went well after the fact. At his point, I didn't know if the guitar would withstand the tension of a set of medium strings which this player preferred or if it would explode and end up embarrassing him and me that Saturday night. I the final steps, I took a few minutes to cut an Omega logo from MOP and inlay it into the EBony head veneer on the headstock and dressed and levelled the frets before polishing them on a buffing wheel. Stringing it up was nerve wracking experience, but all went well and there were no surprizes at all. The set up was a smoothe one and the action came out low and comfortable. I didn;t put a pickguard on due tot eh nature of the whole effort and simply rubbed a few light coats of master tung oil on to give at least a minimal amoutn of protection against rubbing and bumping without the necessaity of more than 24 hours dry time for it. When all was said and done and the strings were pulled to pitch, it was 6PM....just 13 hours after the first steps in its assembly began..and I had broken for lunch and a few short visits from players in my area. The funniest part of the story is that the guy who got it as a gift from me played that Saturday night and ended up throwing his Takamine into my dumpster and has played that CA built guitar along with another Omega he commissioned a year later since. The lack of a finish really allowed the guitar scream and it has taken on this very cool road worn, vintage look much like a Strat played by Rory Gallagher or Stevie Ray Vaughn has. It had a charming indication of the beginnings of a "Trigger" like hole below the soundhole and lots of dings and scratches and signatures all over it the last time it was here for me to see. I've never had to repair a single joint or even tweak the set up. The player who owns it has moved away and is still happy playing it....I'm a little concerned sometiomes that it is the Omega that he prefers out of the two he owns, though. From what I understand, he's not very far from Jim Olson's shop in the Minneapolis area and I'm worried sometimes that he'll pop in to show Jim the guitar as an indication or representation of my work without an explanation of its origin. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
|
| Author: | Rod True [ Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Kevin, so how strong was the headace after smelling the ca for that long. 
|
|
| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I have no idea how much time I spend, I'm sure I'm slower than most, probably in the 150 hour range. I am a hobby builder, with small kids, a day job and an old house. I work in my shop every night if I can, but I rarely get down there until 9 or 10, after the kids are asleep and I've taken care of at least some of the housekeeping chores. Then I work as late as I can stand it, at least until midnight but just as often until 1.30 in the morning or so, I have to get up at 6.30 to do the whole routine again the next day. So I'm guessing not all my shop hours are as effective as they could be if I was doing only this, and not half asleep in little broken up pieces of shop time. I borrowed the "History of Ovation" book at the library a while back. It was, uhum, entertaining  . There was a story in there about when they wanted to buy Martin Guitars some time in the 70's (?). Charles Kaman, founder of Ovation, had a meeting with Martin and reported later that "We could show them how to make these things (guitars). They were putting them together with clothes pins!" Luckily Martin turned the offer down. I found it interesting that Ovation at the time said they had 18 man hours per guitar, they could not mach Martin who had 14 hours (with the clothes pins and all). |
|
| Author: | Colin S [ Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
About 100-150 hours per guitar, and about 250 for a lute, plus French polishing and set up. I could probably speed up a bit by see no reason to rush as I'm only a hobby builder. Colin |
|
| Author: | tippie53 [ Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
If you want the time borken down as you can see it is as varied as the builders. I can do a box in about 8-10 hours if I use preshaped braces and bent sides. If I have to make my own about 4 hours more to bend and shape brace stock. If I use a shaped neck I can have that ready for pre fit in about 4-8 hours depending on binding and volute. Then the body binding can take 2 to 16 hours depneding on a simple single binding to a full pearl custom binding. So as you see it can vary widely but with simple jigs and experience you can do them pretty quickly. I will say that the finishing often takes more time than the build. I allow a day for sanding and about a month to lacquer and let cure. John Hall |
|
| Author: | LanceK [ Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Kevin - I remember you telling that story a few years back at the 13thfret - What a cool story then and now! I clocked my first three builds very closely and came up with 100 to 120 each. This was before I had 1/2 the tools and jigs i have now, so I suspect that my built time has been shortened a little. Certainly experience has played a big roll also, it seems every time I do a "process" again, it goes faster and smoother than the last time (NOT EVERY TIME) but most the time 
I'm in the same boat as Arnt though, Day job that starts around 7:00, I'm up at 5:30 each morning, I have 2 kids, a wife and I help with the chores daily. So my building is focused mainly on the weekends and a few scattered weeknights. I find that if Im (inspired) to work in my shop, I get more done in 4 hours than a whole day if im not. |
|
| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
100 to 200 I have spent as much as 300 on a abalone perf on all edges and fretboard. I guess I'm a bit slower than most. It is funny you ask because I just finished an hour track on the Tanner Burns OM. It took 180 I had some issues to deal with on it so I ran over. I think it should have been about 110 Now that is based on when I walk in the shop and when I walk out. To me contenplation time, set-up and tool preperation must be counted if you are trying to figure a labor rate. Some only look at hands on the wood time. |
|
| Author: | John Elshaw [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Thanks for the info guys! It sounds like many of you have a very similar schedule to me. I've got 3 kids, a wife, the house, and a day job in school that takes way more time than I thought. I've had necks 3,4, and 5 sitting in the shop complete since we moved here. I'm trying to plan out my Christmas break and what progress I might be able to make during the time off. According to Kevin's schedule I should be able to whip out 25-30 guitars during that month off.  Actually, I'd be really happy if I could just make good progress on one or two guitars before spring semester starts up. I have all these new jigs and tools I haven't used yet that I'm dying to try out.
Cheers! John |
|
| Author: | arvey [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
One of the guitars I am working on right now has gone way over time as everything is taking longer and going wrong. Often the problem that comes up is that one thing gets off a little in the early stages of the build and then instead of dissasembling and doing it again we start adjusting everything at every step along the way. |
|
| Author: | Terry Stowell [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Huh. I would have to take a calendar and a timer to my shop. And I would have to remember to log off for daydreaming, cleaning, puttering around, looking for things, talking to the kids who always tag along, daydreaming....daydreaming. Yeah I think I mentioned daydreaming... Might be better to measure in something other than hours.... 
|
|
| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Daydereaming falls under se-up time 
|
|
| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Are we talking "ADHD hours", or "real" hours? 
|
|
| Author: | John How [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I really have no clue I can't keep track of the scraper I was just using much less the time I spent using it.
|
|
| Author: | JBreault [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Don't forget those OLF hours too.
Or are some of you like me? Should be working now...
|
|
| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Rod, I have a powerful downdraft table and an outside air supply mask that i've always used when using CA glues for extended periods so i was able to avoid that typical headache for that day. I have experienced it, though. I've been guilty of not taking the time to pull out the mask or carrying something over to the downdraft and have gotten more than a sufficient whiff of CA to burn my eyes and make me jump back from the bench holding my burned nose. I was trying a technique for filling pores after it was suggested by another builder during my early efforts with the UV cured finish that I use. The technique was to smoothly spread medium thickness CA glue over the back and sides using a special 3M body putty spatula to fill the pores before the UV topcoat was sprayed over it. Well, just try getting that much CA glue spread over that large of a surface without getting a whiff. I thought I'd never get far enough away from it to escape the burning eyes and nose. I use another seal and fill material now and am glad that I do. I'm digging around to find a few photos of that CA built guitar that I took the day my friend picked it up. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
|
| Author: | arvey [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Kevin, what do you use for seal and fill now. I am still trying to find the perfect filler. |
|
| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
When I began building, I logged my hours in a journal because I wanted to know how long it would take to build a guitar from uncut tonewood to finished product. My first three guitars were classicals. The first one was probably 150 hours. The third was less than 80. My fourth guitar was a steel string, and it was also about 80 hours. By my sixth build, I had bought a side-bending setup using a slicone blanket, which saved a lot of time, and I was able to complete that guitar in less than 70 hours. Since then, I no longer log my hours, although I still keep a journal. However, I have built in a figure of 80 hours into my pricing. I think this is a reasonable number for a non-rushed build. All these numbers include time spent finishing, but only the time I spend applying finish. It does not include time allowing the finish to dry. Or the glue, for that matter. With the tools at my disposal now, I think it would be quite possible to build one of my standard classicals in forty to fifty hours, not including the time that must be taken to fill, sand, finish, and repeat -- however many times are necessary. Best, Michael |
|
| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Somehow I don't think eveyone is counting glue and finish cure,a nd bending cool down times. I know often you can move on to other process while these happen, bu how may times do you choose to walk away while glue cures. To not count this time is a bit miss leading if you are looking for true manufacture hours required. Dang it I wish I could Typeeeeeeee |
|
| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Michael, I agree with your comments, which is why I included waiting for glue to dry in my message. But I don't wait around waiting for glue or finish to dry. TO me, this is one of the great things about lutherie -- I can move on to other tasks while the glue is drying and the finish is curing. Obviously, if one is talking about the elapsed time between selecting tone wood and stringing up the finished instrument, we're talking a longer block of time than just man-hours spent building the instrument. The way I see it, though, if one is pretty well ramped up for consistent production, the total time to build is a relatively fixed amount of time. So to increase production turnout, one has multiple builds going on at any one time. I guess it's kind of a no-brainer for most of you guys, but I've only recently started doing this. Best, Michael |
|
| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Michael, I have been at it for four years now, Because I want to focus on one guitar at a time, I build one at a time, stat to finish before I start the next. Im not that focused on making my luthierie as profitable as possible, as I am building each to top of my skill level. I am sure I will build more than one at a time in the future, but for now and some time to come I like being single minded in my approch. Of cource this limits me to about 4 commissions a year and one or two test, Show or personal guitars. |
|
| Author: | arvey [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
As I said it takes me a minimum of 80 hours to build a guitar but it takes 3 months to build a guitar. At the same time In that three months I turn out 4-6 guitars. |
|
| Author: | John Mayes [ Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I built this one in 4 days.... but normally it takes me 2-3 weeks for woodworking. 
|
|
| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Holy cr..! 4 days you say? I'm putting you near the top on my hate list! Just kidding, that is simply gorgeous! |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|