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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:01 am 
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Al: I got to oogle a Kim Walker guitar this weekend and the owner was telling me that it has a varnish finish. I was very impressed by this guitar and thought it was one of the best guitars at the event (LB's Jam in GA) but I was more impressed with the finish. He also (thinly) finished the back and sides of the interior as well. I seem to remember you have dabbled in varnish. Would you care to share your knowledge about it? I am loaded with questions:

Is the finish tonally equal to or superior to nitro?

I know Bruce Sexauer as been using Behlen's "Rock Hard Tabletop Varnish" for some time but I have not seen any of his finishes.

Can you spray the finish?

What is the cure time prior to buffing?

Is shrinkage similar to nitro?

Is it's durability similar to nitro?

What is the finish schedule (for steel string guitars)?

Are repairs fairly easy?

Any cons?

Any favorite brands or recipes?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:10 am 
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Tim,

Good luck.... It's been a secret for a very long time, and closely kept by his friends who know. I have an *idea* about it but as yet haven't figured out exactly what. I saw a few of his guitars at Newport and agree...he has the nicest looking finish out there. Deep, warm, and oozes character.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:30 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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There is no good finish; you accept the drawbacks of any of them to get the advantages it confers.

I don't know what Walker uses. The varnish I liked the best (Mohawk's '4 hour rubbing') was discontinued years ago; maybe he bought it all. It sure was beautiful. You get the 'deepest' and 'warmest' look with varnish by putting it on 'straight', with no ground coat or sealer. This allows the varnish to penetrate the wood, where its (generally) good match with the refractive index of the cellulose allows the 'light' in. Such deep penetration also adds a lot of mass and damping, so...

The 'Rockhard' varnish is pretty good, but has some problems. Most of them can be finessed by proper application.

Nitro is a fairly hard finish with low damping. When tested by one researcher (Schleske, published in the Catgut 'Journal') on cross grain spruce strips the finished samples had lower overall damping and a higher stiffness to weight ratio than unfinished strips. Shellac had the same effect, but less. Since high stiffness to weight and low damping are generally considered acoustically good, fresh nitro is probably an acoustically good finish. Nitro is, of course, chemically unstable and breaks down over a relatively short time, but hey, who's perfect?

Because of the oil content most varnishes have higher damping than shellac or lacquer. They also go on a bit thicker than it's possible to get shellac by French polishing, or most brushed varnish finishes. Thus varnish is probably not as 'good' a finish acoustically as French polish, but what else is? I'd say that on the back and sides a hard varnish ('rubbing', NOT 'spar') put on thin should not hurt the tone much, if any. It's harder to say about the top: a lot will depend on how you do it.

Varnish is almost always brushed or padded on. I'm told you can spray it if you add a fair amount of acetone: I've never tried. Be prepared to do some sanding between coats to get it level. Maybe more than some...

Since varnish cures by an irreversable chemical reaction rather than the simple evaporation of a solvent it doesn't buff the same way as lacquer. You can't melt the surface and flow it out smooth. Rather you use an abrasive to polish it, and just keep going finer until the scratches dissappear. Varnishes can be ready to polish in a few hours, but they take months to fully cure. The shiniest surface is usually the one right off the brush, but it may not be level enough.

Varnish does most of it's shrinking early on, but this is enormously variable. Remember that there are about a half dozen drying oils, and several dozen resins that can be combined to form varnishes. They can be combined in any oil to resin ratio from about 2:1 to 1:2, which will change the properties of the final film. In addition, they need to be cooked together, and the cooking time and temperature profile make a big difference. Then there are all the variables of how thick you lay on how many coats with what drying time in between. It's a little hard to make firm predictions....

That said, a good varnish will be less hard than nitro, but tougher and less chippy. Some things that would scratch nitro will just dent a good varnish, and the dent might pull out over time.

It's harder to repair scratches in varnish. New coats don't 'burn in' as well, owing to the chemistry. Hard lacquer is the same stuff as the liquid in the can, with the addition of some solvent. Hardened varnish is not the same thing as what you're brushing on, even if it came from the same can. Cooked chickens don't cluck.

I've used the 'Rockhard' varnish, and it's about as good as anything I've tried recently. I thin it out with about 25% mineral spirits and 5% acetone to get a very thin mix, and then add a few drops of kerosene (!) as a brushing agent per pint. This goes on pretty level if you're careful. The first coat takes a day or more to dry properly, but after that you can lay down two coats per day. I can often get away with only five coats, so three days? Sand level in the morning and lightly before the second coat of the day. The last coat can be polished up with 1800 or 2400 Micromesh to get out the 'sand' and dust, and then shined with plastic polish; either Meguires or Novus.

Aside from the difficulty of touch-ups, the biggest cons have to do with recoat times and witness lines. This particular varnish seems to harden from the top down, so each layer is harder on the surface. As you sand through to a previous coat you go from a soft layer to a harder one, and get a shiny 'witness line'. The acetone helps some with this, as does recoating as soon as possible after the prior coat. It might also help to wait about three months for the stuff to cure all the way through before polishing. I dunno; I don't usually have that long. Otherwise you just have to get it smooth enough so that you don't have to cut through coats to get the surface right.

Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:35 am 
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Al:
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Sounds like it can be a lot of work and somewhat problematic if you don't take the time to go through the learning curve.

While I was at LB's jam there was alos a German made acoustic that had an oil finish of some sort on it. It was an all Black Acacia guitar and they didn't pore fill it, only a light coat or three(?) of an oil finish. Very unusual for a high end guitar. Didn't really strike my fancy though.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:03 am 
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Al, that's the most intellegent, thoughtful and complete description of a varnish finish as I've heard anywhere. I can attest to most of what you say through my own experiences in using varnish as an instrument finish. I have tried NOT scuffing the recently dried coat before applying the next coat & found that was a BAD IDEA. The film will easily separate if you don't prep the previous shiney surface. I'll have to try the acetone additive to help the minimal "burn-in" situation.

I've not brushed the stuff on (I can't bring myself to spend $30 for a good brush) but have had quite good results by wiping the finish on using old T-shirt material. This works much better if the varnish is substantially thinned - I use turpentine as it's slower drying than mineral spirits but faster drying than kerosene - and it smells better than either. You need this slow drying & flowout for the varnish to smooth itself & self-level. Usually 12 to 15 coats or more is the norm for wiping it on - it goes on quite thin when wiped maybe 1/3 or 1/4 as thick as brushing it on per coat.

I have a tip for the witness line problem. Go ahead & level & polish as usual and just ignore the witness lines - get the finish flat & level. Then, take a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of turpentine to varnish (very very thin mixture), and carefully wipe on a final coat after your leveling & polishing. This will rid you of the witness lines & give a very slick & shiney final surface. Don't sand it again, just lightly hand polish with fine & super fine Novus or whatever you prefer. Really works well.

I've used Tru-oil varnish, Minwax polyurethane, & Waterlox glossy this way & have to say they all worked well. The Waterlox varnish seemed to turn out the best looking but the polyurethane looks pretty good too. The Tru-oil varnish was OK but not as easy to wipe on evenly as the others. I hope to try the Behlens RockHard Varnish next time.

If you're looking to reduce total finishing time or reducing the labor-intensive aspect of the finishing stage, look elsewhere. It's at least twice the time & all of the effort of a traditional nitro finish. It does look good, however, and it does not damp the tone very much as far as I can tell. It's also more fun than spraying.

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