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Side Supports
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=3897		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  L. Presnall [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Hesh,

I've not used any to date...(10 guitars) and have had no problems so far...but I'm paranoid now with apparently everyone else using them so plan to start with the guitar I'm currently building. I think I'll use EIR to match the guitar sides, with a support just before the upper bout curve heading away from the neck block, just on the other side of the upper bout bend, just outside of the waist, and just after the lower bout bend heading toward the tail block...but that's just me and there is much more wisdom here on the forum than I can offer!
Author:  Josh H [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:35 am ]
Post subject: 
There have been a few discussions on this topic over the past little while. You might try searching around the archives a bit.

A lot of guys are using a cloth that they soak in glue. I plan to give this a try on my next guitar. I can't remember the name of the stuff but it is supposed to be available at fabric stores. It seems to me that cloth would be a lot easier to work with than carving neat little side braces. You also don't have to worry about only putting the braces where the sides are flat. From what most people say the cloth will stop a side crack just as well as a wooden side brace.

Josh
Author:  tippie53 [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:49 am ]
Post subject: 
      Martin used the linen strips before they switched to the wood supports. I wouldn't think of building a solid wood guitar without them. I place 4 supports at the flat areas of the bouts and into the waist.
      Supports function to help keep the side from splitting under stress. I don't think wood or linen is the issue as long as you use something. I have used both , I like linen as they fit any contour and the wooden supports need to be fitted.
john hall
blues creek guitars
Author:  arvey [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:05 am ]
Post subject: 
I had a customer drop a guitar on the end and it split from the Tailblock to the first side support. I orriginally used Wood and now use Bias Tape. Both work but I find Bias a little easier to use.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Hesh,

I have no experience with this as to the tone questions you were asking about but here is the current state of my first guitar.



This is the glue up of the finger braces. They started out as 1/4" by 1/4" pieces that I drew a center line down (roughly be free hand)and then I used a block plane to make them nearly triangular and sanded those pieces to 220 grit. They I used a fine saw and cut them to fit between the kerfing. The spacing is even on both sides but is somewhat random otherwise, just looked for the best spot. 5 on each side.

Here they are installed, with a 1" taper at each end of each brace into the kerfing height.



Here is a couple close-ups





I hope this helps. Others, like Mark Swanson, use bias tape (available from linen supply stores) and say that it is just as good and lighter. I am a wood guy so I like wood. These ones, of course, are spruce and are very light.

Shane
Author:  old man [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Mine looks exactly like Shane's except I only put three on each side. I used spruce and they're shaped just like Shane's.

Ron
Author:  Brock Poling [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:42 pm ]
Post subject: 

I have been to several of Frank's courses. I do it the way he shows in the video. The only problems I have had are the ones with superglue on them occassionally pop off. I have begun using LMI white glue on them and had no problems since.

Author:  Tim McKnight [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
I use Hem Bias Tape or Selvage Tape found at the local fabric store. It is availabe in several different colors but I use tan and mocha colors. It comes in a tri-fold configured strip so I iron mine so it is completely flat with no folds. The material is a cotton / linen material. I have used material that is nylon or polyester blend but the glue doesn't adhere as well as it does to the linen material.

The problem with using wood is where the wood joins to the lining (butt joint). This area is often a stress riser and the weak link in the joint. If a crack would develop at this joint it could travel all of the way around the guitar. If you use wood it is much stronger to run the strips the full width of the sides or let the strips into the lining.

Bias tape is very thin when applied correctly and you can glue the lining right over the top of it.
Author:  tippie53 [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
   I have taken Dave Nichols course and was trained in repair through Martin. The side supports do very little if anything for tone , these are an anti split device. Tape or flat wood is all you need. If there are any advatages to the side supports adding any tonal inference of value they would have be used comercially or they would have been seen in more numbers.I have seen so many different bracing patterns. Of these about 3 are used comercially. X ladder and fan. All others are variations. I do inlay them ( side supports ) but that is the reason they are there.
    I use the same wood that the sides are made of. I stopped using super glue a long time ago. Ok for some repairs but the glue often stains or fails over time. You can't beat good old tite bond and hide glue.
John Hall
BLues Creek Guitars
Author:  paul harrell [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
I make mine out of thin wood strips that are the same width as a section of the lining between the kerfs. That makes it easy to inlet them, you just use a chisel to knock about an eighth of an inch off a section of lining and   the brace fits right in.

             Paul Harrell          ;  
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
You can do that, or follow the Benedetto method and run them almost the full height of the side and glue a piece of lining over it. I posted a picture of that in a discussion a couple (?) of months ago.
Author:  arvey [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:29 am ]
Post subject: 
As I said I use bias tape with Hide glue, fast and easy. I use 5 per side. After having the one side split after being dropped I know the difference it can make. It won't stop the side from splitting but will stop the split from traveling. Make sure the side support goes right up under the lineing.
Author:  johno [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Like Arnt, I use the Benedetto method too ... It seems like if the function of the side brace is to help in preventing cracks from running along the grain, it would seem that a crack could form between the kerfing and the side brace. I dunno if it makes a difference, but It made sense to me, so I went with that.
Author:  arvey [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Absolutly, the Side brace has to go under the kerfing.
Author:  csullivan [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Bias tape works for me. It's easy to glue in right across the whole side and
the linings glue right over it. Why add weight unnecessarily?
Craig
Author:  Ron Priest [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mine are like Shane's only with out the scallop. I just miter the ends. This is similar to the ones I have seen in Collins guitars. I use mahogany on EIR. I've even heard people say they have used popsicle sticks. What ever works for you. Some people even put in really fancy ones-inlaid and everything. Something is probably better then nothing though.
Author:  Kevin Gallagher [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hesh,

   Frank Finnochio is a friend of mine and we worked together at Martin back in the ealry 90s. If you've seen one of Frank's guitars, you'll want to do just about everything he tells you to do on his great DVD set. He is probably one of the top three builders in the world, but has not pursued the accolades that many others chase so passionately. An unsung hero in the world of lutherie to say the least.

   If you ever have a chance to see his work up close, it will inspire you in the same way it did me back then. His enthusiasm and deep knowledge of the guitar and every component's function is awe inspiring as he builds while holding a conversation and never misses a beat. Frank's been at it for a long time and could easily run tight circles around many who are being recognized and reverred as the best in the field today, but has always offered himself as more of a teacher and has handed his great wealth of knowledge over very generously to many fortunate students at his beautiful studio in Easton, PA, at Martin Guitars and at classes he taught at Peters Valley in New Jersey years ago.

   He's a master with an honest loyalty to his true passion for teaching, but builds what is real art in the form of wonderful guitars. Besides his obvious talent, he is a really likeable and friendly guy. Glean all that you can from his nicely produced DVD collection...it's treasure being offered to you from a true master of the craft.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega GuitarsKevin Gallagher38684.9679513889
Author:  arvey [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:05 am ]
Post subject: 
I had one side crck after it was dropped. Right down the center and went from the tail block to the first side brace. I alos had a Martin com through with a split on the flat part of the lower bout towards the waist. Again the split stopped at the side brace. I have also talked to others who have seen splits on guitars where the side braces didn't go under the lineing. Aparently one guitar split block to plboce right between the Lineing and side braces. Others will have more experience I am sure.
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Kevin- great words for Frank. I visited with him at Martin a few times when I was first entering building. He introduce me to the guitarmaker mag/ASIA. I'm encouraged to visit his shop (only about 80 min away)and yours as well if that's possible. You come pretty highly recommended yourself :)

Maybe this is rehashed or elementary-but using a plywood tailblock can help prevent splits, esp. if dropped on the endpin or if plugged in, there can be some additional force to produce the split.

Just repeating what I've heard...
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:29 am ]
Post subject: 
The side cracks I've seen usually go along the middle of the side, if they are from stress (dropping, street fights). Shrinkage cracks often run along the liner edge.

You _must_ inlet solid side braces into the liner. Otherwise any force on the side brace is concentrated at the end, where the brace and the liner meet, and that's where you get the crack. Of course, that's the hardest spot to repair...

I did a little 'science fair' project where I tried out cotton poly bias tape and nylon twill tape, using both hide glue and Titebond. I made strips of side material (from cracked sides) of a uniform width, and put on the tapes in the usual way. Then I tested them out to see how much force it took to break them by pressing on the outside (tapes in tension).

Basically, any tape tended to about double the amount of force it took to break the wood. The nylon tapes tended to come unstuck before they broke, and to let go at a lower force. The best was the cotton-poly bias tape, glued with hide glue. In most cases the tape broke along with the side. Linen twill minht be better, but this is pretty good.

The self-adhesive tape that Martin has used is terrible, and I think that's what gave tape a bad rep.

Any glue will let go if it's exposed to air over a long time. I shellac over my side tapes once the liners are in place, to seal them against the air. I can't say how well this works yet; get back to me in about 200 years....

There has been a lot of discussion about whether tapes or braces are better. There's no doubt but that braces are stronger if they're done right, but I'd say they are more likely to be a problem if they're not. There's also the issue of how strong a guitar side 'needs' to be. Anything can be broken if you try hard enough.

As bad as it was, I took some consolation in Mark Blanchard's experience when his guitars from the Newport show went down in a USPS airplane on the way home. It hit the side of a mountain going about 275MPH. The force was sufficient to bend the tuner shafts. The sides were sheared off at both end blocks, but the tapes kept them from cracking otherwise.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:01 am ]
Post subject: 
I have done a couple guitars with laid up mahogany and rosewood side braces Mahog/IRW/Mahog, 8 to the side on a dreadnaught and 6 on an OM They were 1/4 total width x equal thickness as the linings and full side height. I laid the linings between them and use the edge surfaces same as I would linings. This was a nice decorative look but added a little un-needed weight, so I have not done this with laminated braces anymore. However I still do the same thing with spruce except 1/8" wide x lining thick, then taper them to a parabola between the linings. This requires planning to work with brace notches and such but planning is what we are all about right
Author:  Brock Poling [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:26 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher] Hesh,

   Frank Finnochio is a friend of mine and we worked together at Martin back in the ealry 90s. If you've seen one of Frank's guitars, you'll want to do just about everything he tells you to do on his great DVD set. He is probably one of the top three builders in the world, but has not pursued the accolades that many others chase so passionately. An unsung hero in the world of lutherie to say the least.

   If you ever have a chance to see his work up close, it will inspire you in the same way it did me back then. His enthusiasm and deep knowledge of the guitar and every component's function is awe inspiring as he builds while holding a conversation and never misses a beat. Frank's been at it for a long time and could easily run tight circles around many who are being recognized and reverred as the best in the field today, but has always offered himself as more of a teacher and has handed his great wealth of knowledge over very generously to many fortunate students at his beautiful studio in Easton, PA, at Martin Guitars and at classes he taught at Peters Valley in New Jersey years ago.

   He's a master with an honest loyalty to his true passion for teaching, but builds what is real art in the form of wonderful guitars. Besides his obvious talent, he is a really likeable and friendly guy. Glean all that you can from his nicely produced DVD collection...it's treasure being offered to you from a true master of the craft.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars[/QUOTE]

And if you can swing it, do yourself one better and go learn from him first hand. As I mentioned in a previous post. I have been to several of Frank's classes and just can't say enough good stuff about him.

(plus it would be hard to top what Kevin said... )
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:48 am ]
Post subject: 
How do you find Frank Finiccio's video's?
I didn't see it listed on the web.

John
Author:  Don A [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:55 am ]
Post subject: 
John, I have his videos but they are for a VCR not DVD.    I purchased mine my from Rich Altieri but I believe Stew-Mac carries them. I've got to say they were a great help in getting me started on my first Blue's Creek kit. I keep planning to take one of his classes but can just never find the time.
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