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I am currently in the process of finishing my second guitar and have started a third. I have no intention of ever taking orders for guitars but this question keeps going through my dull little brain.....how many guitars would you need to build before being good enough to take orders?
My first guitar has it's share of flaws and my second one will as well, although it is an improvement. I hope that the third will be better still, however it is hard to imagine coming close to flawless. So discounting tone for a moment, as that is just too subjective, and just looking at fit and finish how many guitars did you experienced builders make before you attained a level of quality that you were willing to sell?
I'm thinking for me it would be about 10-12 guitars.....

Oooo - that is a loaded question.
For me, I sold my 3rd guitar, and that started a stream of people willing to buy them that has not yet stopped. Currently I have 8 on the books, 3 of which are in progress right now.
I think its very hard if not impossible to put a number on when your guitars will be "good enough" to sell. One reason is because we are all so hard on our selves and of our own work. Another is whats "good enough"? And by whos standards?

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I sold after only 4 and it was to a close friend, but I would not recommend it to someone. I had a good bit of woodworking background before I got started as well a good bit of set-up repair experience.

If I had it to do over, I would not sell till after my tenth that had no structural, cosmetic or playability flaws. I think that is the key. You must be confident with the structural integrity of the guitar and your ability to repair any thing that may go wrong with the guitar. As well you must be confident in the tonal quality of the instrument as you are building it. This is the hardest part.

So for me the number 10 does not start at the first you built, but the first that meets all these goals.

I think Michael's criteria are on the money. Really, though, I think you're ready when an EXPERIENCED player asks, "How much...?", and you're confident you can build it, to his or her satisfaction, for the price you ask.

Michael,

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that once you have completed a guitar that is playable, structurally sound and cosmetically good enough to meet your quality standards, you should then wait 10 more guitars before you start taking commisions? So if that first guitar that meets with your quality standard happens to be guitar number 10 then you should wait until guitar number 20 before taking commisions?

If that's what you are saying it seems a bit extreme. And what would you do with the 20 guitars you've already built?

Thanks,

Ten near flawless guitars and then start selling? Geez I could be 150 years old and never sell a guitar. Bobc38691.773587963

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Do ten more after your fist near flawless (within reason), Be darn sure your success is repeatable

I did not say perfect. There is no such thing. I guess I should have said near flawless. The big key, if you sell, is the ability to properly repair any problem that could come back at you. That is a huge leap because wood is a very dynamic media, and not always predictible. But you must be at a point in your skill level to warranty your work with the cofidence that you can survive the warrenty. Also the ability to create guitars with repeatable attributes.

So if you can reach this point after only 3 builds.. haha! then build ten more to insure your repeatability.

My adivce is if you don't have to try to make a living off making guitars don't sell em. When you sell em and start taking orders you have the added stress of customers and all the things that go along with them, both good and bad.

If your just building for your own personal enjoyment then I say give em away ot friends, family, church members, ect.

If your goal is to become a full time luthier then take a good look at other handmades...and nice ones, and make sure your work is up to par if not then you'll cringe everytime you think about your 2nd guitar out there. My 3rd guitar (one I built for andrew peterson) while he loved it and so did many others I cringe everytime I saw it cause of all the little mistakes.

But if this is just a hobby for you..don't sell em. Just enjoy the process and give em away.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

A very loaded question. I built my first, just to see if I could do it. I never
planned on EVER taking orders. My mistake or blessing depending on how
you look at it is....
I took it to work to show a collegue.
Some how I ended up with FIVE commisions.

I am so overwhelmed!!!!
Andy

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Andy,

That sort of thing has happened to me. I built the first one to see if I could and loved it so much that I decided to continue. I took the first one to work to show off and now have 2 orders. At the moment I'm only selling them for the cost of the wood. I don't know if that qualifies as giving them away, but I'd like to at least recoupe the money I put out.

I built my first and have 4 commisions after that. I gave every reason why I shouldn't build the guitar for the person, but they all insisted and two of the 4 have payed me well for them. As long as the customer knows what they are getting and agrees to it, do what you want. Note: all of my sales have been to friends. If it were family, I would have charged double.

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Hi,

I still haven't finished a guitar intended to be sold as of yet. I kept builds # 1 & 2 and am in the early stages of # 3 & 4. For # 3 & 4, I discreetly asked around my group of friends, family & acquaintances to see if any of the guitar players would be interested in my building them a guitar ... for the cost of basic materials & supplies. The understanding is that they are taking a chance with their $500 - $600 in the hopes that I can make them a guitar worth much more. Also, they have limited say as to basic shape and aesthetics.

That way I can continue to build instruments and hone the necessary skills & gain experience, but not have to pay for said materials & supplies. Nor will I end up with a bunch of OK but not great guitars hanging on the wall and an irritated wife fussing about all that $$ hanging on the wall.

I hope to finish guitars # 3 & 4 and maybe use this same approach for the 5th guitar, and then beginning to charge for "build quality" from that point on. Maybe using an increasing sliding scale as more skill & experience is gained that actually shows in the finished instrument. I'll decide on that when the time comes.

Skip

I guess the better question would have been:
What qaulity of fit and finish do you deem good enough to consider taking orders.
Perhaps I am too obsesive about the quality of the work, but I would not be willing to sell guitars until they could compare well to some of the better known builders.
I don't see that happening in the first 5-10 guitars.

Hi Bill,
I felt I finally "arrived" at about guitar #20.
Unfortunately I started selling them and taking commissions at around #7.
Some of my guitars had neck angle and fret problems.
Remember, I started building in the "dark-age" of luthery,no videos,2 lousy books and no one to talk to-basically a vacuum.
I really had to "un-learn" a lot of what I was taught.
Today people wanting to learn this stuff can improve there learning curve by attending forums like this one.
You will know when you are "there"-My advice is don't rush it-hang the guitars on the wall or give (or sell inexpensively) to friends and family.
There are always going to be "mistakes" that only you see-I can look at almost any professional makers guitars and find what I consider "mistakes."
It's all about tolerances
Remember what the woodworker Roy Underhill says-"When all else fails-lower your standards!!"

As I work on guitars #1 & 2, I am struck by the multitude of opinions on this subject. There are literally as many answers as luthiers (or those in training!)

I suspect that there are luthiers who had near zero woodworking experience before enbarking and then there are others such as myself who have 30 years or more of experience.

The question central to this discussion is actually unanswerable because each interprets the quesion (which is rather broad) differently. Let's narrow the scope of the question. First, who are we selling this guitar too? Someone to recoup costs? Someone to feed our family? A relative, a stranger, a bum on a street corner?

We each have not only a different idea of a potential market but a different idea of "perfection." I spent many years thinking that my work wasn't good enough to be sold. Then, I recieved some unbiased feedback that shocked me! People loved my work!    I began to look at things differently. I realized that "compared to the rest," my output was highly regarded.

I say this, not to brag, but to point out that we can have a very distorted view of our work based on our own desire for a level of perfection that is unattainable. I am very guilty of this. I play classical guitar. I am told I am rather good yet I am my own worst critic!    

The bottom line is that, if someone wishes to purchase numbers 3 & 4, caviats notwithstanding, I will sell them if only to recoup costs, Why not? (btw, 1 & 2 will either remain with me or one of them may be given as a gift to a dear friend, my teacher)

Regards, Steve Brown

PS Merry Christmas!

My first guitar was one of my best and I have had many good serious offers to buy it (Grit Laskin Told me not to sell it so I'll listen to him.) My second Guitar sold within a week of finishing and my third was a commission. I had a number of orders right off the bat and was running a six to 8 month waiting list but as many of you are aware the waiting list has dried up and I have no orders for after Christmas now so after about 2 years of doing this I have just started a new Full time Job. Boy does that Suck. Especially since I just found out that a Juno Award winning Artist who plays one of my guitars is getting ready to record a new Album all on my guitar and another Client from the States who's guitar will be finished this week just left a message today saying she wants to come up to Canada With a Film Maker who is making a movie about the New CD she's recording to include her picking up her guitar as part of the film. Part of the question though is how good you feel your guitars have to be to sell. I look at some of the work on here by you guys who do this on the side and am amazed at the work. My instruments are quite simple so it is easier to get them to an acceptable finish that way. You also have to decide if you are including selling to friends as selling or not. None of my guitars have gone to friends although many of the musicians who bought my guitars now call me a friend.arvey38691.9003356481

Bill N
Looking at what you have shown so far...esp with the inlay.
Your quality would blow most of us out of the water
Andy

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

   I was flattered to be able to sell number two and have sold every one since.....and I'm serialed out to number 513. I have nearly 130 orders in my shop right now. The price should be in line with the quality of the guitar.

    I still have #1 in my posession and have been offered $8k for it. Is it worth that much? Not by any stretch, but the guy who wants it is in Tokyo and they are very excited about small American builders. I've been able to gain few very visible and powerful endorsers over in Japan who are some of their best guitarists. To have #1 from a small builder like me would be a great collection addition for this particular person, but I will probably never part with that first guitar.

   The first few guitars may only bring back the cost of the materials used to build them, but that is a wonderful thing for any budding luthier. Buy more materials and make a better one so you can recover the ,aterials again and a few bucks for you time. As you skill level increases, so will your profit margin. Word of mouth is a very friendly and powerful promotion media.

   I have a sort of affinity for major publications in any genre and have always been very aware of the political nature of their choices for editorial consideration so I've never placed a single ad in one. I've done a few of the major shows and have seen the blind, lemming like crowds chasing after the brandnames instead of tone so I've avoided many of those over the years too. Choose your promotional direction carefully and stick to it once you've made it. Integrity is tough thing to find in the media here in the US and I've had great success with receiving reviews and model comparisons and even interviews in the major guitar publications in Japan since they just want their readers to get a chance to see everything that's available instead of only guitars from advertising vendors. Use them if you like, but there are other ways to get your name out there if you work hard at it.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Kevin Gallagher38691.9546296296

   My building started by accident. I built 14 my first year. I have 5 that I kept. Most are sold before I build now.
   I start my prices at $1700 and up. It depends on what they want. If you can't make any money there is no sense building
john hall
blues creek guitars

[QUOTE=tippie53] ...snip...If you can't make any money there is no sense building
john hall
blues creek guitars[/QUOTE]

Am I reading this wrong John or are you saying that unless you make money at building guitars there is no sense in building them?

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

I'm a newb at this game, about 9 guitars (8? something like that) under my belt, one of which is an acoustic. Only two arein someone else's possesion (a tiny, made from scrap 20" scale electric that was more of a gag gift than anything else, and that red inlaid PRS-style guitar that I built as a wedding gift).

At this point in time, I've got one confirmed electric I'm building for my girlfriend's little brother at cost plus whatever small bonus he feels is appropriate for my time (I'm not expecting anything, since he's still in high school). I've got serious interest expressed by another 3 friends who'd like electrics (one wants a les paul-ish thing, another a strat, another a telecaster), who I'll get around to eventually, and who I'll probably sell the stuff to at cost plus maybe 200 bucks for my time.

On the acoustic front, my second acoustic (baritone) is going to a friend at material cost (see a pattern yet?). Bit of a risk, but I've told him I'll replace the top, fix whatever needs fixing if he doesn't like the sound. My third (that inlaid jumbo) and fourth (parlour) are also going to friends, the former for cost+300 for labour (because my friend insisted on paying me for my time, and wouldn't take no for an answer. I wager he'll still be getting more for his cash than he could at a guitar store, particularly since he's in the UK), the other purely at cost (building it on a tight budget).

I'm comfortable with this, because I'm very clear on the fact that a) I'm new at this, b) I'll do everything possible to make things right if people aren't happy with what I deliver and c) I'm comfortable with my abilities when it comes to solid construction. Dialing in the desired sound (for acoustics) is a work in progress, but I'm off to a pretty good start so far. I'm grateful to my friends for allowing me to do some slightly experimental things, try new ideas, and have them pay for the materials I need for this purpose.

As I see it, I'd very much like to see this hobby finance itself. ie, 'sales' pay for more woods, materials, and the occasional tool upgrade. Even if it only pays for the materials, its worth it to me. I build because I can't not, and frankly, I'd rather see my instruments in the hands of friends (annoyingly, NOBODY in my family plays. Nobody) or other musicians that will enjoy them, than have them hanging on my wall, where none will get quite the attention they deserve (considering I'd rather build than play, most days).

I could list a dozen reasons why I build guitars, the least of which would be money - that said, the money is nice if for no other reason, it helps to cover the cost of this expensive hobby.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

   I should have been more specific , If you want to be in business , there is no sense building if you can't make money at it.
     I admit when I started I did give a few away just to get them out there. Once you get a name you will be surprised at how quick the orders come in.
     When you get to that point set a fair price and stick to it.If your product has value the customer will see that. I wish I could give things away but the realities are you have bills and responsibilities .I work hard at keeping my prices as fair as I can. If you can't make a profit you won't last long.
    Money shouldn't be the driving force , you should belive in what you do and love doing that. It you are looking just for the finacial gain you will soon be dissapointied.
John Hall
    

I have seen some very good work by some luthier's who price them very reasonable. And on the otherhand, I have seen models that I didn't care for, priced right through the roof. (not necessarily bad, just not my taste)

In both cases I can only assume sound and play qualities are great in all cases.

For those of you who have taken orders, how did you decide your pricing schedule? How did you price for your first sale, and how do you price now?

Best regards,

Rick