Official Luthiers Forum!

Perhaps not a good question to post on a Forum focused mainly on flattops – but here it goes….

Every once in awhile I surf eBay for a vintage Gibson 335 TDC and always find them obscenely priced – well for my budget anyways. Finally last night I spot a 1970 priced at about US$2,600 and start getting an itchy bid finger – suddenly an email pops up from John Mayes which causes me to pause my bid trigger finger. I go back to the auction – and now start thinking “get a grip” – 1) the wife’s away (so no spousal approval – and yes I am a wimp).   So as a precaution to the 335 being part of a divorce settlement I call and fire off an email to my wife’s crackberry -- no response --- then decide to sleep on it the auction won’t expire for another day.

So today armed with some much needed sleep and a cooler head I call a guitar store in Toronto and then Mandolin Bros. in Staten Island to get a sense for what is market.   Each of the stores pulls out the Vintage Guitar Guide and provide me with the snap shots below which I compare to a number of the eBay auctions I’ve looked at.

Vintage     Vintage Guitar Guide     eBay
1968     $3,700 to $4,400     $5,000 +
1970     $2,500 to $3,300     $2,500 to $4,000
1979     $1,800 to $2,300     $1,200 to $2,800

What I can’t reconcile in my mind is why the large discrepancy in prices between Vintage Guitar Guide and eBay as I would have thought eBay being an auction would be fairly reflective of market?

The interesting thing I learned is that the early 1970’s to about 1986 were the deep dark years of Gibson poor quality control, when they were owned by Norlin. The advice I received was to purchase a 1969 or earlier or recognize that any circa 1970’s and on will never be considered a collectors item.

Postscript:   My wife called today to say go for it!!!!

I think the vintage guides are more of a reflection of what they are selling for, rather than what they are "worth". If you think the guitar will rise in value I see nothing wrong with paying a slight premium if you can find one in good shape and well made.

Re gibson's dark years.... while that may be true... it doesn't seem to effect the value of certain guitars made in the early / mid seventies... do an ebay search on Les Paul Deluxe to see what I mean....

If all else fails you can probably put it back out on ebay and recoup most if not all of your money.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I think that the VGG would be a more accurate source, but then again if they are selling for that much on eBay then that tells a lot about market price.

fwiw the 335's from 58-60 are the really collectable ones, but the 60-62's are pretty popular too (cept most vintage gibson guys like the chunky necks,and the 60's years a lot of them had thin necks)

Other than that the rest of em are moderatly collectable, and equally as good imo. They have a great character! I personally like P-90 versions of gibson semi hollow thinlines...

Some of my favorite are the ES-175, ES-125TD,295's (gotta love the gold paint job) and the 330's although the P-90's are much less desierable to most people.

Oh and I've never really seen the 335's called a TCD as the "C" means cutaway and all the 335's had cuts. And similarly the "D" Means double pick-up and all had double pick-ups, and even further the "T" means thineline and there was not a full depth 335 made.

One warning though....if you buy it and don't share pics I'll be bummed! Enjoy your new guitar (if you get it)John Mayes38695.8769907407

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

HI Anthony
     I got lucky 2 years ago. While in my local music shop Creter's in Jonestown Pa Matt just took one in on a trade for a PRS.
      I watched him clean and do a set up. Asked him how much. For me it was 1500. I found it is easier to get the wifes forgivness than permission. She made me give it to my son LOL.
   Well I do get to play it once in a while. I got a red one and the thing is a dream.
Go for it
john hall

Here is mine:



I inherted it from a Grandfather I knew very little. I have had it now for over 20 years. When I got it the headstock was broken and hanging the headplate veneer. I glued it back together with epoxy but have yet to really refinish that area. When I do the repair will be near invisable. The origal tuning strips have been replaced (before I got it) with Shcaller single machines. The model is labelled as an ES335TD, the serial number is 055703 (stamped on the back of the headstock). I think that I looked it up one time and 1968 sticks in my head but I may be wrong. But as John says, plays like a dream and sounds great.

If anyone can confirm its age and value, I would be happy to hear it. Sorry though, she's not for sale!

Thanks

Shane

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Canada

shane,

Does it have "made in the usa" stamped on the back of the head as well? That will get me a lot closer to telling you what year it is..

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Shane's is mid to late 70's. IMO nothing made after 1969 is "vintage."

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Yup, made in the USA is stamped on the back of the head stock as well as on the Gibson Inc label inside the upper F Hole where it says it is Union Made. I know for sure that it is older than late 70's as it was not new in very 80's when I recieved, could be early 70's but I 1968 still sits in my head....

Thanks

Shane

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Canada

it is a 1970 model....the first year they stamped "made in the usa" on it.....

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Sorry, I didn't see the serial number. It would indicate 1973, but no later
than 1975 and no earlier than 1970.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I thought the first number in the serial number was the indicator of the year. ie: in this case it is 0 which would indicate 1970.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

just ran across this on the net...it mentions the first number being the year as well, but not spefically for 1970-75, but I assume the same metod would be applied.

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson.html#serial

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

" ... why the large discrepancy in prices between Vintage Guitar Guide and eBay..."

The prices of collectible things are highly volatile and they go up or down all the time depending upon how interested people are in them at any given time, and how many of them are available.

Printed pricing guides reflect someone's compendium of average prices at a fixed moment of time, while eBay (and other auctions) reflect what people are actually paying for things right now.


      

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D..

Hey John Thanks for the link. Serial # puts my 345 at 1963 or 1967

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

The style of tune-o-matic bridge looks exactly what was used on my '73 SG. Either it's a replacement or your guitar was more likely made in the '70s.

My source is "the vintage guitar info guy."

www.geocities.com/Hollywood/375/gibson.html#serial 
 [at pp.23-24]

He seems to have the most complete research.Howard Klepper38696.8873958333

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

dang system isn't letting me edit (again).

Those pages seem to no longer be up. I printed them a few years ago.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

That's him at provide.net. You need to read through to the part on 70's
hollow bodies.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

sure enough. Seems howard is right.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Is anyone interested in making one of these beasts? Jamie at
www.guitarplansunlimited.com/Gibsonish.htm has a plan for sale. I make
the laminated plates for another builder .

Since I don't see any paid sponsors who sell laminated plates here, I am
making a batch of the plates and laminating the sides with matching veneer.
If anyone is interested, email or PM me. Right now I have birds eye maple,
curly maple, and walnut. They are 5 ply with maple or poplar inside.

I am going to make one myself. I could really use some help with
constructing this beast, I don't know much about pickups and guitar
electronics. Should be fun though, I really need an electric guitar now for
my son who is strumming harder and harder on the classical I built him.

Am I reading this right? ES345TD Ser. #113627
Serial Numbers 111550 to 115799   1963 or 1967
All models, stamped in back top of peghead. No "MADE IN USA" stamp below serial number!
Only thing it has the Bigsby vibrato and Vari-tone rotary tone switch with black ring and he states it limits popularity. Nice guitar though.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

I felt like a bit of a heretic posting this topic and much to my delight discover there are a bunch of OLF’ers with Gibsons in their closet.

John Mayes the “C” in a ES Gibson 335 TDC model number refers to Cherry finish and thanks for the info and URL for serial numbers.   Another source of info is Dr. Duck’s Dating Servie http://www.ducksdeluxe.com/datesvc.html   &nb sp;John, I didn’t purchase the eBay listing (as it turns out it was priced okay). I am going to keep looking…………

Brock you were right, I wasn’t accurate with my “dark years” comment. In speaking to a couple of reputable stores in Canada and the U.S. the “dark years” were really from 1969 through 1986 with all the management/ownership/factory location changes. Apparently it was the quality of Gibson flattops that most suffered through this period with the solid body and thinline acoustic/electrics purportedly unaffected but many models were tarred with the same brush. Here’s what a little further research turned up:

•1896 - O.H. Gibson, Manufacturer, Musical Instruments was formed in Kalamazoo, Michigan
•1902 - The Gibson Mandolin-Guitar Manufacturing Company, Limited was later established (Orville Gibson was not one of the founding partners, but had a separate contract to be a consultant and trainer, and was a part owner through a purchase of company stock until his death on August 21,1918 of endocarditis).
•1906 - the company name was changed to Gibson Mandolin Guitar (production started at the famous Parsons Street location in 1917 now home to Heritage).
•1944 - Chicago Musical Instruments (CMI) acquired controlling interest in Gibson and renamed the company CMI Gibson, Inc.
•1969 – 1974 - E.C.L. Industries, Inc. took ownership control of CMI, though CMI management continued to manage Gibson until 1974, when it became a subsidiary of NORLIN Industries which was really ECL/CMI being renamed after E.C.L.’s after H. Norton Stevens, president of E.C.L. and Maurice H. Berlin, president of CMI.
•1974 - a new factory was opened in Nashville, Tennessee
•1980 - main production was switched to Nashville with Kalamazoo becoming the specialty factory (1980 Norlin announced decision to sell Gibson)
•1984 – (June) Kalamazoo closed (closure announced in 1983)
•1986 – Gibson USA formed (with the purchase of Norlin’s interest)

When I look at prices of various vintages of Gibson 335’s, now I understand a little better why the value really changes between 1968 and 1969 and then noticeably drops off with a number of post 1969 models.     

As for my question as to my original “why eBay prices are so much higher” tracking some auctions shows that a number of “out of market” 335’s keep getting relisted as no one as of late has been bidding on them. I’ve done a comparison of recent SOLD prices from a number of vintage dealers and they are on average better priced than many of the eBay sellers. What I learned from all this is that if I want a 335 that will appreciate in value, I should be looking at 1968 and prior. As for eBay, it’s a good check as to what is market, but it would probably be wiser to try and work with a couple of vintage dealers.

Notwithstanding what some dealers have told me, I really like the early vintage 1970’s 335’s (like Shane’s). The early 70’s model had to my hand a great feeling one piece Mahogany neck which later was switched to a three piece maple neck in the late 70’s.   I have a 1979 and have had no construction quality associated problems with it but really prefer the feeling of the earlier necks.

man dude.. sounds like you know a lot more about it than we do! Why the heck you asking us ;)

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

John when I initially asked the question I didn't. Over the weekend I talked to a few stores, followed up on the URL's you posted and did a little web surfing on pricing of some vintage dealers. For what its worth -- there seemed to be some interest in this thread and thought it would only be decent of me to share what I learned and correct where I was wrong. In the future --are you suggesting that I not ask any questions here, do a bunch of research on my own and then validate here. Or just not bother! The post above was sharing a concerted work effort on my part (why do I have that my computer is blinking feeling)

But hey thanks for the info you passed on it did short-cut my info search...sheesh John Anthony Z38697.6952430556

no anthony it came across (to me at least) that you already had this knowledge, in which case it would have been like me asking everyone here if they could explain to me how to do a double mortise and tenon neck joint like Dana Bourgois.

I did not realize you did the research and then re-posted the info....I should have fully read your post (it was kinda long and I just glanced at some of the points)

Your right I'm wrong. It's my fault 100% and I'm sorry. I say that everyday to my wife so I might as well toss you in there too.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com