Official Luthiers Forum!

Anyone who can help...I sure would appreciate it. I just had a customer bring in 1986 B.R. classical guitar made in Granada Spain. It is a Santiago Marin. Does anyone have any idea what this guitar is worth? It is in need of fairly good amount of repairs. I don't want to have the client spend a $1000. on the repair for a guitar that is only worth $2500. It was a gift to him and therefore value is unknown. I assume it is worth $5k or plus considering it was made in Spain and is BR. here are some pics:











Also i would appreciate any/all repair estimates based on the above pics and the following:

1) Back has a crack from tail to heal. All four ladder braces have come loose.
2) Top has a fine crack from tail to bridge but upon interior inspection it does not appear to be all the way thru the top so perhaps a thin CA might be the fix.

I realy appreciate all your thoughts/suggestions and also what you might charge for the repair. I want to be fair but it does seem like a lot of work and I don't want to give away my labor. THANKS EVERYONE!
Dave-SKG38702.5742476852

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

With out even a second consideration I would repair this instrument, providing the client is willing to pay. I would assume that 5k is probably a low end estimate. In any case this guitar deserves repair. If it was my personal guitar I would spend a k in a flash...I just would not tell my wife

Hi Michael,
Thanks for the response.
WOuld you use HH Glue, Titebond or would you go the CA route? All four ladder braces are very loose.

THANKS AGAIN!

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

CA is so dangerous on finishes and so unpredictable, I would avoid it. What type of glue is under the braces, any evidence of color? As for doing the job, my philosophy is always: guitar 1st, me 2nd, customer 3rd. When you work on a 100 year old instrument or a one of a kind valuable instrument you start to realize that you are just a moment in time for the instrument so I always try and do the right thing, and adjust my price for the customer . If it is a job I am not comfortable with I pass it along to the best person I can find. That being said there is no way to learn without trying.

_________________
http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

If the finish is French polish, which I would be it is I would use hide on every thing. If by some chance the finish is nitro or WB lacquer I would might use CA on the cracks if no splint grafts are needed. Maybe use CA on the top crack if you can carefully wick it in. Most certainly use hide on the braces un less concerned about getting clamping time then use Titebond. Dave I am not a classical builder. I am just looking at this from the structural side. It is a beautiful guitar. from what I can see it looks like nicely quartered BRW back and side.

No evidence of any glue. It was so clean and precise in it's build. I have used CA to repair cracks before and then FP'd over them with great results. I am just wondering What YOU guys would do/recommend. There's always a better way...right? And of course I really appreciate all the help and the time you guys take to give advice.

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

THANKS AGAIN MICHAEL!

YES it is F.P. and the cracks- back closes up perfectly and top is very tight so I am thinking CA for the top and HHG for the back then perhaps Titebond for the bracing since it will give me more time to fumble around. Do you think my repair price of $1000 is reasonable? TIA

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Considering what I can see of the repar it might be just a tad high. The way I would look at it is to est. the hours x 1.5 your labor rate + material usage + your company or home owners liability deductible. As you probably know there is a high risk when repairing a major crack. always cover your liability insurance deductable.

$5000 would be a very conservative number for a Paco Santiago Marin guitar. New his guitars start at $4800 for an EIR, a BRW that is one of his earlier instruments could be considerably more. The #14 does not indicate that it was his 14th...he started his own shop in 1973 after working for his uncle Antonio Marin, another great Granada builder. (reference: Zavaleta's website).

If the person does not want to put that much money into the instrument (if they dont play or have an interest) it still should be repaired and/or sold as his guitars are highly sought by both players and collectors. Elliot Fisk owns and plays a Santiago Marin.

There is information about this builder on this web site: http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/mirror/inventoryC.htm Note that Francisco goes by Paco. New instruments are listed at $8000, and a used one from 81 is listed at $3000 with no cracks, etc.

I'd say a valuation of > $5000 after cracks are repaired is a bit high, based on Zavaletas' site. I'd bet you could run the story by him and see what he thinks.

BTW, I've bought from him, and trust him.

Do NOT use CA for the top crack with a shellac finish. I'm not one of
those who worship hide glue for all purposes, but it is the thing to use
here for sure. CA can dissolve shellac.

I'd suggest taking out one of the loose back braces, so you can see what
the glue is. If it is PVA, you probably need to remove them all to clean off
the old glue. If it's hide, go with new hide glue, which will redissolve the
old. If you wanted to use PVA in place of old hide, you should remove
them and clean off the old glue, but it would not be an appropriate repair
for this instrument if hide was original, and it probably was. I'd urge you
not to do it. Future repairers will expect to find hide.

The really famous Marin in Grenada is Antonio. But what you have there
appears to be a fine instrument; worth fixing right.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

It appears that Shawn and I were posting at about the same time, and using the same site for reference. LOL

Anyway Dave, I'd be interested in an evaluation of what the guitar sounds like. Zavaleta's certainly raves about the sound.

I Thank you all for your help. Those that say not to use CA on the top...I am curious to what/how your application of HHG would be. The hairline crack (on the TOP) is very tight...it seems that any attempt to widen it to put hide glue in it would do more damage than the CA to the finish. I am not worried too much about the finish so much as I know I am going to have to repair it anyway (FRENCH POLISH - SHELLAC...for sure). Please explain to me how you would apply HHG to such a tight crack.TIA

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

If its of any help to you, here is the entry in Jose Romanillos' "The Vihuela de Mano and the Spanish Guitar - A   Dictionary of the makers of the bowed and plucked musical instruments of Spain":

Santiago Marin, Francisco (b. 1946). Francisco Santiago Marin was born in Granada on 5 September 1946. He learnt guitar making with his uncle Antonio Marin Montero. He had his first workshop at calle Pino, 73, Granada, in 1973 and in 1990 he moved to Santiago, 41, (32 old number). He has taught his son Luis Miguel Santiago Hernandez (b. Granada, 23 December 1969) who has worked with his father since 1987.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Thanks to you all. Mucho Gracias!

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Dave, you thin the hide glue quite a bit more than usual. Hide is very
flexible regarding thinning. You can actually double the amount of water
and still get a good bond, but I'd say 50% more water is plenty for a thin
mix. Notice that when you push down on the crack with a finger, it opens
a bit. It has to, since you are arching the surface. Any visible amount of
change in the width of the hairline is enough for glue to flow in. Lay on a
bunch of thin hot glue--you can be sloppy. Flex the top with finger
pressure several times. Wipe off excess with little damp rags. Wipe, toss
rag, repeat with new rag, etc.

Actually, that crack does not look so tight. The edges don't seem to be
aligned perfectly, hence the white line in the photo. If it isn't perfectly
aligned, you are going to
have to clamp in some way to align it flat immediately after you wipe off
the excess glue. If you can get a clamp in there, great. If not, magnets,
tuner clamps, or jack post with a clamp around the body are all
possibilities. If magnets work, they are the cleanest and easiest.
Needless to say, dry clamp before you glue and get
comfortable with whatever method you use. You probably should back
up the crack with a few spruce diamonds. These can be clamped in with
magnets. But if the crack runs right alongside one of the fans, this can
be a problem and you either don't add the diamonds or get creative about
it. I'm sure Frank Ford has some pictorials about these methods.

If you don't feel confident about the job, you don't have to be the one
who fixes it.Howard Klepper38703.0101851852

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

HI Howard,
First, Thank You for all your advice, I really appreciate it!. I do feel competent enough to fix the crack, I just don't have a lot of experience fixing tight cracks with HHG. I always used Titebond, LMI white, and CA. The top crack IS very tight. I know it doesn't look like it in the photo, but that is because it is under full string tension and I did get a very close shot. When I took off the strings and then pushed on it, it popped back into place and I couldn't get it back out. After checking inside, it doesn't even appear to be fully thru the top it's full length. It is sitting right next to one of the "tone bars"/ "fingers" so a patch is going to be somewhat awkward. That's why I was thinking super thin CA so it would wick in easily.

But please don't take this post wrong, I am going to try HHG and do as you suggested. I do appreciate any/all advice you give me. THANK YOU.

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

If you can reach inside far enough to push up on the crack to open it while
gluing, this is preferable to pushing down from the outside--it opens the
side of the crack facing the glue. I should have said this in my last post.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard thanks for all the advice!

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"