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I'm branching into a new wood combination for me and am going to make a Western red Cedar/Maple (European) guitar. I'd be interested in any feedback on different guitar types/sizes OLF'ers may have made in this combination and your views on what worked or didn't work.

Also any "secrets" on bracing cedar, and working with maple.

Thanks

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Dave, I can't help with the maple side of the question as I've never used it, but I have built half a dozen or so guitars using WRC. It is, as you know a classic with mahogany so should be great with the maple as well.

Leave the top 10% or so thicker than you do the Euro tops and it works really well with parabolic bracing, which I know that you use already, giving beautiful attack with warmth. It's particularly good for the modern percussive style, and I use it on my main DADGad OM.

Hope this helps, but I know whatever, you'll end up with a great guitar.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I'm doing the same combo right now so I can't help you either but I'm interested to see what if anything you all have to say.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I have played a few guitars in this combo. They were built by Andrew White. They sounded really good. The look you can get is a bit different than what most of us are used to seeing, dark top with really light sides. But tonally it can be a very good sounding guitar.

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
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I recently completed a Cedar /(Western bigleaf) Maple long scale Irish bouzouki & I'm really impressed by the sound. For a small bodied instrument it is remarkably loud, with a full richness I find very pleasing.
I used a dark chocolate brown top with Ebony bindings & the colour contrast is startling, but effective.
I also have an Engelmann & Maple Zouk almost ready to go at the moment. I'm looking forward to hearing the two side by side. Daniel M38707.525787037

HI Dave as Colin said you need to leave Cedar a bit thicker than spruce, the other thing is watch the dust from the cedar, you don't want to breath cedar dust in.

How thick on redwood tops?

Dave-
I have built a few cedar topped guitars, and was told to use paduck for a bridge plate. I have used, rosewood, Brazilian, maple and paduck, for what ever reason, the guitar with the paduck plate sounds better than all the others. I know there are probably other reasons, but for me, there is reason enough to stick with paduck for my cedar guitars.
Also regarding thickness, its hard to pick a thickness, I would say, thin it as you would any other top, flexing as you go, and when it feels right, it probably is. I have some very stiff cedar tops and likewise some not so stiff. Same with redwood, the LS is unbelievably stiff, while I have other redwood tops and that are probably never going to get used because there to floppy.

Hope this helps.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=bob J] How thick on redwood tops?[/QUOTE]

.140-.145 pre voicing

All the guitars I have heard with this combination have been really "Bright" sounding. If this is what your looking for then fine. But I find them to be out of balance. To my ear spruce is a better top wood with Maple.
I agree with Lance about Paduak bridges. And I think it's because they are relatively light weight. Maybe the heavier bridges dampen the top.
Glen S.

Thanks for all the replies and advice so far.

Not really a sad lonely anorak posting on Christmas day, just executing some post goose gassing off Happy Christmas one and all.

Either you OLF'ers are being very shy and modest or cedar/maple is a combination that not many of you have actually built in. Any experiences?

Now where's that Christmas pudding . . .

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I built an SJ with with a cedar/quilted maple b&s, and although the tone is nice, the volume wasn't as great as I would have liked. But I did some things wrong with it internally with the bracing which left it rather stiff, so that's probably not the best example. Still, not an altogether unpleasant sound. Merry Christmas Dave...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Number 5 for me way bacj in 2000 was a quilted cedar OM - braced heavier than I do now, but it needs a top refin, and I wil get in and lighten her up a bit - nice warm tone though, not at all bad, just different.

Like was mentioned before, what gets most people is the very untypical dark top light sides. But is is still VERY pretty.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

The cedar/maple guitar that I built was the worst sounding one I ever made, as far as I am concerned. that doesn't mean it won't work! I want to try it again, but I haven't made another since.
By the way, Lance suggested a paduak bridge PLATE not bridge. And I agree! I have used it and I think it makes a really good bridge plate.

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Lance/Don,

I have used padauk for bridgeplates and really rate it. To me it has a tap tone similar to Brazilian r/w. I'll use this on the top.

Don, Tony and Mark,

Thanks for this. I've heard that maple is tricky to get the best out of and read a few posts in other forums by John Greven who is supposed to have the master touch with this wood. These were a few of the things he said:

"Most important is coupling the right top with the back and sides. A stiff top, very lightly braced is a must to bring out the highs to balance the tendency for maple to be muddy. I prefer either hard maple or well quartered flamed maple for my backs to give them the required 'ping' I look for. Sides can be quartered or slab, doesn't make any difference tonally. Don't cut the back too thin, it needs more substance and stiffness than the rosewoods. The idea is to build the guitar lightly, but think light on the top rather than the back. The back will act as a tonal blotter if too thin or of softer wood, rather than a good reflector when left a little thick and stiff."

"Basic rule of thumb is to couple a stiff top with soft back and sides or softer top with hard/stiff back and sides. This evens out the difference in tone between hard and soft maples."

My friend Peter Cree has told me about a Goodall Cedar/Maple parlour guitar that he raved about so I was intruiged.

Good job I like challenges and learning from mistakes

Thanks again

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I take a different approach with cedar tops. I don't leave 'em heavier than spruce or other woods. If I did that, they'd act the same, which kinda negates using different woods, right?

I run my cedar tops within the same specs as spruce, even red spruce. Yes, a bit weaker at times, but it's this extra 'freedom' that allows the cedar guitar to move more. My CF bracing is like cheating, maybe, but it does help a lot. I even scallop the cedar tops plenty deep... None have imploded, and I'm actually having a funny problem with a cedar topped OM/D I built last year. I expected the top to rise, and set the neck with plenty of saddle at the bridge, and included some lower saddles to use when the action rose. Well, the action hasn't budged a bit! oops!

Anyhow, that my take on cedar tops and steel string guitars, a combination I've used since '99.

Today, on NPR, there was a 15 minute show by Tim Stafford and Rob Ickes, and Tim had given me a head's-up that he played his Cedar topped Cocobolo dread(that I completed in September this year) on it. It's now archived, and available for listening on-line. Not a whole lot of playing, but you can hear this guitar there(especially at about the 6 minute mark...). A great bit of intelligent insight into the music I love, too, for those of you who aren't into it as much as I am....

Click here, then click "listen".

Josh mentioned this further upstream, and others chimed in too about the visual hurdles you'll be up against. The one maple guitar (European) that I built had such a dark Sitka top on it that it looked like cedar. Well--I caught a lot of grief from my luthier peers, who thought I had broken nearly every rule of guitar building propriety. Of course, things are a lot more civil around here, and probably no one will strenuously object to your choice. (But then again--if they do, so what?) Anyway, living and working there in the UK, you won't have such a hard time bucking tradition as some of us over here do.

Let us know how it goes--

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

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Hey Mario;
Thanks for the sound clip.
That's one SWEET sounding guitar.
I'm just waiting for the lacquer to gass off for a few weeks on a cedar topped jumbo. I too set the neck angle back a bit extra, expecting the top to rise some... After your cautionary tale, I think I'll let it settle a while under string tension before I permanently glue down the fingerboard extension.
Do you think it'd be OK to leave the extension unglued for a while, or would you put a few drops of glue in there?
Sorry to hijack your thread Dave!

Wish I could help, but I've yet to complete a maple guitar. Got one waiting for me though. Good luck with it. Show some pics.

You're fine to leave the fretboard extension loose a few weeks, but beware that a side load on the enck(attaching a strap the headstock, etc..) can put extra stress on the joint. Also, it will be prone to some strange buzzes at certain frequencies, and if left too long or if there's a large RH swing, you could see warping of the fretboard.

But all of that is unlikely; string 'er up!

I agree with Steve about the cosmetic "faux pas" of using a dark top and light colored back and sides. It's an uphill battle. I'm assuming the maple here will be stained or sunburst? that would take care of the "problem". OF course, you can use a dark top and light sides, and just say you're starting a new tradition <bg> In mandolins, the black face is well accepted, and that one is a black top on sunburst or blond maple back and sides....

Steve/Mario,

I have no problem of "bucking tradition" as I don't really know what the tradition is - in the UK it is not as deeply ingrained.

I love the idea of a darker top and lighter back/sides and I don't think I will be doing a sunburst - the maple looks so nice to me naturally. I'm toying with what to use for bindings, whether to go dark with an ebony or Rosewood, or do something more "interesting" like using Cuban mahogany. It's the inverse of using maple binding for Cuban b/s that I ususally do. This should really upset the "purists" as mahogany is considered too soft for a binding material.

Mario - I like the idea of not treating the top any differently - just thinning and bracing as the particular top dictates. I have in the back of my mind that you have to be a bit careful gluing the bridges on cedar - not to overclamp, but I could be confusing this with advice for redwood tops.

Steve - do you have any pictures of the Cedar/ maple guitar you did, and how did you like the sound of it?Dave White38712.4814236111

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

as mahogany is considered too soft for a binding material.

Bah! Humbug!

I've used spruce as bindings. Looks like ivory, especially if you use pure white spruce with very fine, slow growth.... Soft? You betcha!

Sure, it dents readily, but he who asks for it understands that...

I've thought of sending some down to Larry Davis for his acrylic treatment; that would make them pretty tough!Mario38712.5497569444

The soundboards of most lutes don't get binding at all, the top just stops! Some of them are still fine 300 years later. If you don't bang it it ain't going to dent!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.