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| Question about saddle pickups... http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=4204 |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:22 pm ] |
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Hi all, I was just working on the saddle on my Martin OM21 and was wondering what affect the Fishman I-beam pickup has on sound? I know a big part of the sound depends on having a good saddle which is properly seated in the bridge so the maximum energy gets tranferred to the top. How does adding the pickup impede energy transfer to the top? Since this is the only spot where the vibrating strings actually touch the top, is there concern about dampening the sound, or does this actually have minimal effects? Thanks! John |
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| Author: | csullivan [ Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:31 am ] |
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I haven't used the Fishman, but recently installed a K&K Pure Western. It's very easy to install and sounds great. This was a new build and I never heard the instrument before the pickup was installed, so I can't comment on damping effects. Craig |
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| Author: | Evan Gluck [ Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:35 am ] |
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I have installed both Fishmans and K&K pickups. The K&K is less invasive as there is nothing under the saddle. The only drawback is they tend to pick up alot of body noise if you move the guitar around while you are playing. I have removed a few for people and installed the Fishman system. I think I like the K&K sound more though. Keep it a secret though as I am a Fishman dealer 
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:32 am ] |
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Ah Come on Evan, let's say it louder! I'm a K and K Dealer!
Shane |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:10 pm ] |
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Under saddle transducers, also called USTs, are most often piezo units. They generally use either a ceramic material, such as lead zirconium titanate, sometimes called PZT, or poyvinyl-flouride that's been heated and stretched to make it both piezo- and pyro-electric. Although the original piezo materials were crystals, such as Rochelle salts, we don't use them in pickups for the most part, since the ceramics and Kynar, the trade name for PVF piezo. Each type has some advantages and some drawbacks. Usually the piezo material is sandwiched between pieces of metal foil or otherwise housed in a metal holder, such as the one that Takamine uses. Mechanically, they don't effect the contact between the saddle and the bridge too much. The ceramic is pretty hard, and the plastic is quite thin, like a layer of Mylar. Unlike a magnetic pickup, these output a signal in response to pressure changes, and there is no motion required beyond the scale of molecular dimensions. either way I don't think the piezo unit 'costs' much in energy transmission from the string to the bridge. Obviously, a badly fitted UST can be problematic, but you usually notice the effect far more electrically than acoustically. It's a drag when one or another string just doesn't put any signal into the amp. USTs need to be _very_ carefully fitted and installed if they are to work properly, and it's been my experience that you can get away with more sloppiness in a plain saddle than yo can with one with a UST under it. The USTs don't weigh much, an since you cut away a little of the saddle to put them in, the change should be negligable. The I-beam is a top transducer, sensing the motion, or, more likely, the accelleration, of the top. It's like the 'dot' transducers in that respect; the K&K is another. Some acclellerometers use a mass to help 'tune' them, and to give more bass response, sandwiching the piezo element between the top and the mass. The I-beam does add some mass to the top at the bridge saddle. I did not weigh any of the ones I've installed, but they aren't too heavy; nowhere near as massive as the bridge. They could change the acoustic tone a bit from the added mass: I'd expect in the direction of a little more bass, but I would not expect too much of a change. All piezo transducers are, electrically, little capacitors. They have very high impedance, and the input of most ams is not at all happy with that. They usually sound 'tinny' ot 'thin' unless you use a buffering pre-amp, which will require a power source. I have had some luck with piezos smoothing out the sound by putting a small inductor in line: a few microHenries, iirc. So, the bottom line is that a properly installed UST should have little or no adverse effect on the acoustic tone. A top sensor might, if it's relatively massive compared to the bridge, but it probably is not. In the end, of course, there's only one way to tell: listen to the thing! |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:30 am ] |
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OK I am confused .. which is it - a BAGGS I beam, or a Fishman whatever ??? The I beam sits on the bridge plate and requires NO saddle adjustments, same as any of the K&Ks except their stick undersaddle - all others are on the bridge plate types transducers. FWIW - the K&K trinity rules IMO, best true acoustic sound I have heard yet. |
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| Author: | Mark Swanson [ Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:02 am ] |
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Tony has it right, I was going to ask the same question. Which one do you have? |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:08 am ] |
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Hmm, I guess I'm not exactly sure because it was already on the guitar when I bought it. I did a quick search on the internet and it looks like it's the Fishman Acoustic Matrix. It sits under the saddle in the saddle slot and looks like a thin piece of red tin-foil. I replaced the Martin saddle with a bone saddle and it seems to make a difference--the guitar actually sounds a bit brighter, but no noticable change to volume. John |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:29 am ] |
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Yep the red foil is definitely a Fishman undersaddle, and depends on the preamp as to whether its a Matrix I or II (the II i setup for more bottom end, for smaller body guitars) At a store I used to repair at I put in lots of these. Th trick is to get the saddle to sit down tight ON the PU - lots of times I taper the bottom edge of the saddle (ie take the square edge off). This will help let the saddle seat fully to the bottom if its a hair tight, and it increases the pressure on the PU too - remember same force downward with less area = more pressure --- and piezos like pressure. I found these PUs are great for players who thrash their guitars - they love the high output, but i fond hte sound thin, too mid rangy, and as usual with a piezo, way too much quack when hit hard. |
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